A Developer's look at IE9

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IEBlog is covering a few of the changes/enhancements currently underway with Internet Explorer 9. There's talk of performance improvements and standards compliance, but history teaches us that they talk one game and walk another. They're already more concerned/impressed with themselves for swapping graphics to the vid card from the PC (hooray for more custom API's *puke*) and getting rounded corners. Their reference to Acid 3 as a standards test is a joke, but that explains why they're always 10 years behind in compliance - I mean c'mon...a 32? Really? They didn't even do well in the sub-test sections that are receiving the most interest right now; they bombed the majority of DOM-related tests, CSS3 selector tests, and SVG-related tests. I was also a little disappointed that there's not a single mention of HTML5, but if they can't support existing technologies properly, I suppose support for what's "new" is expecting too much - webkit, anyone? Not Microsoft. They're stubbornly refusing to the right thing. Again...and again...and again...

I feel like M$ is struggling to stay atop the innovation field as other browsers like Chrome, Opera, Firefox, etc. begin to outshine them. The problem is that these other browsers handle the core functionality first while IE chooses to ignore the voices of developers and users alike and continually do what they think is best. I suppose I could look at this with a positive light; if they continue to steam forward at this pace, they'll someday alienate their entire user base, perhaps then allowing me to stop coding for IE. Hey, I can dream, right? :D

Source: MSDN Blog (IEBlog)

UPDATE: On a side note, this tool linked from the comments is also worth a look.
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  • genux
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Microsoft behind on other applications, nah.. never !!!.. OpenGL is far better and DirectX is only just implementing some things that OpenGL had 3 - 5 years ago and saying that it is great and new..

I personally think it would be great to make a standard that makes all of the browser makers made liable if they do not follow, then they are financially liable and forced to fix to the standards.
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Hahaha! Bitter much?
  • genux
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Nah.. not bitter.. not at all.. Microsoft, I just cannot get over that they say that they will/do conform to standards but they just do not appear to. I really hope that I am proven wrong.

I suppose what I mean, is that they are a business, and they have done a great job in getting there software out there, a really good job. I just kinder hoped that they would try and be part of the game that they at present nearly own, they have no need to go against the tread to set apart there applications from not working with standards apart from people will need to use them to make it work ( which I assume is good business sense ?).

I really am not bitter at all, It is great to have a choice of what browser to use if you want to change from the default settings.

It is funny that the Apple symbol is on the PC's on most films these days..
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genux wrote:
It is funny that the Apple symbol is on the PC's on most films these days..


Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's funny, when I was a kid and computers started appearing in schools in the early and mid 80's, they were all Apple Macs. I mean ALL of them.

Then, of course, in the early and mid 90's, as we all know, it all switched over to IBM compatible/Windows PC's.

I can't wait to see what the next decade has in store.

Otherwise, I think MS made great strides between IE6, 7 and 8. I'll look forward to 9 and reserve judgment until the full release.
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digitalMedia wrote:
I can't wait to see what the next decade has in store.

Otherwise, I think MS made great strides between IE6, 7 and 8. I'll look forward to 9 and reserve judgment until the full release.


Yeah.. I really cannot wait for the next decade either, I wonder if there will be more interactive machines as standard ? talking / movements etc, they are in development / production but would be great to have them as more standard.

Yeah.. totally agree, with you regarding the IE9 waiting on the full release, and as I said, I really hope that I am proven wrong and IE 9 is great with standards.
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If you look at the summary at the very bottom you would see how bad MSIE is... 32% support of things for MSIE9 which is lower then the far past releases of other browsers. I am definitely waiting until MSIE expires. I mean the whole MSIE is out of existence.
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Bogey wrote:
I am definitely waiting until MSIE expires. I mean the whole MSIE is out of existence.

I wouldn't hold your breath, guys.
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Just for clarification, I think this is what Bogey's referring to...

Image
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That is exactly what I was talking about. Thank you for clarifying that :)

Seems like MSIE can't or doesn't know how to compete with the other web browsers. Or they simply don't want to.
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Bogey wrote:
Seems like MSIE can't or doesn't know how to compete with the other web browsers. Or they simply don't want to.


If I had a 75% to 85% market share, I wouldn't feel much like I needed to "compete" either.
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UPSGuy wrote:
... I was also a little disappointed that there's not a single mention of HTML5, but if they can't support existing technologies properly, I suppose support for what's "new" is expecting too much - webkit, anyone? Not Microsoft...


So I take it that you are in support of them providing features that are not yet standards, yes?
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digitalMedia wrote:
Bogey wrote:
Seems like MSIE can't or doesn't know how to compete with the other web browsers. Or they simply don't want to.


If I had a 75% to 85% market share, I wouldn't feel much like I needed to "compete" either.

Most of those people are people who aren't developers and don't really care about development and the rest is developers who still test for MSIE.

MSIE makes a browser that shows sites and has bells and whistles to appease to the non-developers (and plug-ins that would help developers... maybe. Don't know as I never searched for them)... after all, what percentage of the world develops sites?
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Since we are on the subject, I just got this email from Google today:

Quote:
Dear Google Apps admin,​

In order to continue to improve our products and deliver more sophisticated features and performance, we are harnessing some of the latest improvements in web browser technology. This includes faster JavaScript processing and new standards like HTML5. As a result, over the course of 2010, we will be phasing out support for Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 as well as other older browsers that are not supported by their own manufacturers.

We plan to begin phasing out support of these older browsers on the Google Docs suite and the Google Sites editor on March 1, 2010. After that point, certain functionality within these applications may have higher latency and may not work correctly in these older browsers. Later in 2010, we will start to phase out support for these browsers for Google Mail and Google Calendar.

Google Apps will continue to support Internet Explorer 7.0 and above, Firefox 3.0 and above, Google Chrome 4.0 and above, and Safari 3.0 and above.

Starting this week, users on these older browsers will see a message in Google Docs and the Google Sites editor explaining this change and asking them to upgrade their browser. We will also alert you again closer to March 1 to remind you of this change.

In 2009, the Google Apps team delivered more than 100 improvements to enhance your product experience. We are aiming to beat that in 2010 and continue to deliver the best and most innovative collaboration products for businesses.

Thank you for your continued support!

Sincerely,

The Google Apps team


Email preferences: You have received this mandatory email service announcement to update you about important changes to your Google Apps product or account.

Google Inc.
1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
Mountain View, CA 94043


Very happy to see a large company dropping support for IE6. Such a pain always remembering to find workarounds for that browser.
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cipher wrote:
UPSGuy wrote:
... I was also a little disappointed that there's not a single mention of HTML5, but if they can't support existing technologies properly, I suppose support for what's "new" is expecting too much - webkit, anyone? Not Microsoft...


So I take it that you are in support of them providing features that are not yet standards, yes?

It would be fun to mess around with something new and interesting as HTML5.
  • mindfullsilence
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Looks like google isn't the only one:
Youtube will drop IE6 support

Youtube and digg might be booting the old IE6 as well
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Bogey wrote:
It would be fun to mess around with something new and interesting as HTML5.


I think it would be fun too. It is just ironic to see that we now want Microsoft to implement features that are still in the draft phase. The two main editors are from Google and Apple. I wonder how people would feel if Microsoft was the one pushing things?
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techcrunch wrote:
We recently reported that Internet Explorer is losing market share to Firefox and Safari at a rapid pace.
Awesome :handsup: Can't wait until Firefox wins completely and MSIE goes down like Netscape did.

cipher wrote:
I wonder how people would feel if Microsoft was the one pushing things?
That certainly will be a sight to behold :lol:
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Bogey wrote:
techcrunch wrote:
We recently reported that Internet Explorer is losing market share to Firefox and Safari at a rapid pace.
Awesome :handsup: Can't wait until Firefox wins completely and MSIE goes down like Netscape did.

:lol:
Wow! That article is 7 months old. I guess it's all over for IE by this time. Funny how their stats don't jive at all with the sites I manage.

But, what do you expect from an article that starts, "The new browser wars on on."

Tell me Bogey, what exactly do you get when IE disappears?
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cipher wrote:
UPSGuy wrote:
... I was also a little disappointed that there's not a single mention of HTML5, but if they can't support existing technologies properly, I suppose support for what's "new" is expecting too much - webkit, anyone? Not Microsoft...


So I take it that you are in support of them providing features that are not yet standards, yes?


Is it really so much to ask? They seem to be the only incapable party.
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No matter how old that article is... I guess it was worthy to get me excited a little bit :( Should have known to check the date of the article... that always come to mind a tad bit late :lol:

digitalMedia wrote:
Tell me Bogey, what exactly do you get when IE disappears?

A decrease in headaches
  • cipher
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Let's all join in on the sausage making over at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1.

The faster everything is cleared up the faster all browsers (IE included) can implement things the way they are expected to behave. There shouldn't be a browser war, afterall it is not a zero-sum game.
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I think the only people who click Adsense more often than Internet Explorer users, are Safari users.
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mindfullsilence wrote:
Looks like google isn't the only one:
Youtube will drop IE6 support

Youtube and digg might be booting the old IE6 as well


YouTube is owned by google I believe so kinder aspect YouTube to follow it's owner ?

Yeah would be great if IE did follow netscape and go under and then allow it source code to be viewed lol you would see comments like, "not sure if this works lol" only kinding. But if it was open sourced then other poeple would be able to judge the source code and then only can make it better :)
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I do understand what you all are saying, but this hatred and loathing of software has always baffled me to the point that it's irritated me, often. I find it completely irrational to despise a web browser so much so that you would laud and drool over the prospect of its demise.(I'm still saying don't hold your breath, btw.)

If before we went to bed tonight, we said a wish or a prayer, sung a chant or did a little dance or whatever, and woke up to no IE, what would really happen? Would the world be filled with little pink ponies, magical rainbows and choirs of angels as the people got along together in glorious harmony?

No.

The people who suck at making web pages would still suck at it. The people who are good at it will still be good. The people who bitch and moan and whine would simply find something else to bitch and moan and whine about.

I've been making sites for a long time and I've never had a problem working with whatever congruitites and incongruities there were between browsers and other web technologies. And, there will always be incongruities. It's a matter of constant learning - that's not going to go away.

And if it's not a matter of contstant learning, we can all go find real jobs becuase there's just not going to be much of a need for anything but artists.

The thing with Google and YouTube surprises me. My company is MS centric and we dropped IE6 support a year ago. So I wonder what took them so long(Oh, yeah, money. That's right).

Here endeth the long-winded diatribe. Sorry to burden you all with this, friends.
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I do agree with you (digitalMedia), it is great to keep on learning.. that is the one thing that drives me on a daily basis.

I personally really do not dislike IE or MS to that degree, making sites work in IE for most of the companies that I have worked for is there top propriety and I totally understand. I did not understand one of there developers though, he was a MS person at heart but always said if there was any bugs with stuff that he done, he would say that the site works in Firefox so just say to the person/company that are using the update that he done to use Firefox and it will work fine. I spent allot of time fixing problems to work in IE because of this. I did understand his idea of lets all just use Firefox because it adheres to the standards, but he was coding in .NET and totally ignored IE !!!.

Regarding the demise of IE, that will probably never happen, just that if sometimes you need to do a set style sheet for a certain browser then it is kinder annoying to try and keep things similar with updates etc.

I suppose sometimes it comes down to time and you just want it to work as per the standards. But then as you say (digitalMedia) if IE did go, there would be something else to moan about and where would all of that perceived anger go ? Firefox / Opera etc or to the OS.
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digitalMedia wrote:
I do understand what you all are saying, but this hatred and loathing of software has always baffled me to the point that it's irritated me, often. I find it completely irrational to despise a web browser so much so that you would laud and drool over the prospect of its demise.(I'm still saying don't hold your breath, btw.)

If before we went to bed tonight, we said a wish or a prayer, sung a chant or did a little dance or whatever, and woke up to no IE, what would really happen? Would the world be filled with little pink ponies, magical rainbows and choirs of angels as the people got along together in glorious harmony?

No.
That is true. I agree with you.

digitalMedia wrote:
The people who suck at making web pages would still suck at it. The people who are good at it will still be good. The people who bitch and moan and whine would simply find something else to bitch and moan and whine about.

I've been making sites for a long time and I've never had a problem working with whatever congruitites and incongruities there were between browsers and other web technologies. And, there will always be incongruities. It's a matter of constant learning - that's not going to go away.
Here is where I disagree with you.

You're right... people wouldn't change... the people who suck would still suck and so on and so forth. The way I see it, is that MSIE has a flawed philosophy with which they make their web browser. They create their browser for browsers while everyone else develops their browsers for the web developer.

What's the difference? It still browses and all that stuff, it's just that MSIE is more oriented to the browser user than the web developer. Firefox and those browsers are more web developer friendly and still user-friendly. The way I see it, is if it's web developer friendly, then it would show sites by the standards and not try to be an outcast and try to create it's own standards.

I understand that there would be incongruities between different browsers, but if there are so much incongruities between one browser and another and yet both are popular enough, they stop from certain technologies from being used which keeps the technology from expending and slows down innovation and creativity between web developers and users.

There are a ton of hacks for web developers. Why? Because MSIE f*ed things up and couldn't get the standards right. There are tricks for web developers to fix MSIE's junk... what did MSIE do? They removed a lot of loop holes so web developers wouldn't be able to do that... at least they talked about doing it. Not sure if they did it.

Why does MSIE like being different from every other browser?

digitalMedia wrote:
And if it's not a matter of contstant learning, we can all go find real jobs becuase there's just not going to be much of a need for anything but artists.
Learning what? How to go around MSIE's mistakes? I agree that constant learning of web developing is needed and is a good thing.

Without constant learning I wouldn't be able to code with PHP as well as I can today (it's probably not good enough to compete with you), and without constant learning I wouldn't be knowledgeable of JavaScript like I am right now. It's a matter of what you're learning.

'Anything' isn't good... you could be constantly learning how to run an organized mob or something like that. And there is constant learning as far as MSIE is concerned... constantly learning new hacks and tricks to work around MSIE pieces of sh*ts.

digitalMedia wrote:
The thing with Google and YouTube surprises me. My company is MS centric and we dropped IE6 support a year ago. So I wonder what took them so long(Oh, yeah, money. That's right).

Here endeth the long-winded diatribe. Sorry to burden you all with this, friends.
Call this bitching, call this whatever I don't care. I'm just justifying my "loathing" for it. It's here, and there's nothing I can do about it besides hate it :lol:
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Well, as you pointed we do disagree on some points, but you've made your case very well and I thank you for that.
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Bogey wrote:
digitalMedia wrote:
Tell me Bogey, what exactly do you get when IE disappears?

A decrease in headaches

exactly, in one of Billy's Conference, he quoted "This INTERNET is not compatible with IE probably 6.0" :lol:
so, if IE disappears, the internet will be saved :D

I have IE 6.0 :D yes repeat i have IE 6.0. Last year when i used to open orkut with this IE6.0, they were trying their best to convince me about why should i upgrade IE 6.0 :D but i didn't. Anyways i find it challenging to design for IE 6.0, so i kept it, such that if i can make things compatible for IE6.0, it would be quite compatible for other browsers (but chrome did proved me wrong once). Now since Google as well as Microsoft officially declared that they wont give support for IE 6.0, then i can give excuse to my client about why transparent images doesn't work in IE 6.0 :D
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I have IE6 on one machine. I also keep FF2 on that machine too. Funny, I've never had to tell anyone why something didn't work. I've only given them solutions. Silly me.
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