how about Iraq eh?

  • iNtheDark
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Post 3+ Months Ago

wow its been a more than year since Iraq and it seem's like thing's just keep getting worse. i think Spain made a good discesion getting out of their i think they would have been battered even more by terrisit's if they didn't. thats probably the only reason they left. im not sure if Iraq is ready for it's goverment to be put into affect this soon... but who knows it might actually do sum good for once :roll:
Your thoughts???
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Post 3+ Months Ago

  • IH8Purple
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Post 3+ Months Ago

well from talking to people how have visited to Iraq, they are happy that they wre freed from saddam, but now they want the americains to go away.

the americains are doing things like thorwing entire townships into jail as part of "preventing terrorist"

the problem is the prisions their can't deal with the numbers and people have know idea where there familiy is, or how to get them out (lack of time for trials)
This is called "collective punishment" and is illegal as defined by international law.
  • Cae
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Post 3+ Months Ago

ok, the US needs to stick to the june 30th deadline, and trasfere total comtol over to the Iraqi government, we freed the country, now we let them rule themselves...

however, i do not think Spain made the right decision... "would have been battered even more by terrisit's if they didn't" sums up my thinking exactly. by pulling out of Iraq, Spain basically told the terrorists that killing people works. so the next time that the terrorists see anything which they dont, like they will think "hrm... blowing up a train work last time, lets do it again!" giving in to terrorists does not solve the problem, it just encourages more of the same.
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Except that, despite what the Bush administration wants us to believe, islamic terrorists aren't simply freakish nihilist who want nothing more than to kill and destroy things. Some of them probably get off on it, but for the most part, and especially in Bin Laden's case, the means are not the ends. That is to say, he is not out to blow things up just to see them go boom.

While, in the long run, they want the whole world to convert to their extreme brand of Islam, in the short run, they want the US and other western powers the hell out of the middle east. The mere presence of US troops in Iraq is enough to make them flip their *plum* and blow stuff up. The US, by continuing to kill civilians in Iraq is perpetuating a self-fullfiling prophecy.

It seem the US is, for some bizarre reason, unable to look at the underlying reasons that drive people to terrorism. It's complicated, but it boils down to poverty and political oppression. It's Bush's buddies that run the middle east oil business (The Bush family has been personal friends with the royal family of Saudi Arabia for decades... so buddie's would be an accurate description...), so they are fine with most of the money going to the already-rich. Since money brings power... you see the cycle. The have nots don't get money, or power. Instead, they end up being taken in by extreme muslim sects that teach them to blow themselves up, since doing so means treasures unlimited in heaven.

Guess what? If you're an uneducated 12 year-old living in squalor, watching US-armed police crushing your house and killing your parents, trading your life for a cause probably doesn't sound so bad...

Killing and bombing only makes it worse. Period.

.c
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yeah we had a polititian (or something) who said she might consider becoming a suicide bomber if she had to live under the oppression and awful social climate.

She got sacked. Sacked for having understanding and compassion for people different to herself. She never said that she condoned the actions, just that she could understand. Is that such a terrible thing.

The west has invaded the east. Period. And I'm not talking about guns and bombs, I'm talking cultural invasion, a much more insidious thing. Westeners would hate if our culture was invaded and altered by an alien culture from outside, but we expect everyone to be happy the other way around.

I'm not condoning the acts of terrorists and I'm not condoning any acts of voilence. Sometimes war is a nessesary evil, but most of the time it is not the solution. Someone stikes at spain, you say they should continue to strike back? And how will that work?

As carnex said, these people are not killing because they want to, they are killing because they feel they have no other choice. back anyone into a corner and see what response you get.
  • Cae
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i get what youre saying, but what im saying is that by giving in to acts of violence, it is telling the 'terrorists' (whoever they might be) that violence works, and that they will be less likely to seek peaceful alternatives to solve their problems... spain should have held their ground and waited until june 30 to pull out... just my opinion, youre welcome to disagree with it all you want...
  • sly1340
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I blame this on Bush. He wasted all of our money at the state of the union and then wants us to pay for his war. He talks like a three-year-old and wasted the life of an American just so the troops would stay in Iraq. I doubt that the country will mess with us if we leave them alone or can make some kind of peace. i hope kerry can change all this.
  • Smokenjoe
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Post 3+ Months Ago

lol, I always disagree with Rtm and Carnix. Funny.

Ok, first, Carnix and Rtm both said that they arent killing just for the fun of it. Well, maybe they arent, but I gotta tell you, they sure do attack a hell of a lot of people. Their whole religion is based on conversion or killing. How can you say that we didnt do the right thing by retaliating? the ran our own AIRPLANES into our own BUILDINGS on our own SOIL! And you say that we are the ones invading them. BAH! They started it, and we decided it was about time to take out the trash. The Iraqis needed us, and they still need us to help finish setting up the government. If we werent there, then all the work that we went through to free them would be a waste. Another dictator would just come right back in and set up again. You act like we are there for the simple pleasure of murdering babies. Thats complete bull. Bush may be a Texan, but hes not stupid, and his military generals certainly have a lot more experience in these matters than you or I.

Oh, and us killing civilians, I dont agree with that, but you know what, its called war. The supposed "noble" terrorists who are backed into a corner use the general population as a shield. If they are so good, then why the hell do they fight so dirty with no care for the civilians? I mean, jeeze, we dont go in there and gun down families becaus ewe enjoy it, and we never have. There have been lately on the news stories of abuse by soldiers to Iraqis, and thats bad. Im not condoning that. But you act like thats what the whole american army wants to do. Thats just not true. Its a very small minority that is sick and needs to be punished. What they did is wrong, but that doesnt make the entire war effort evil.
  • IH8Purple
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Post 3+ Months Ago

hmm, funny thing how how the americains invade things for oil

the Iraqies, whom the US dosen't get oil from already (not counting the stuff bootlegged through Jodran), becomes a home for terrorists

but the Soudies who are know to hold (I would LIKE to say most)some terrorists, are selling oil the the US and are safe from attack, although there people are more 'deprived' of Americain culture, being 'protected' by there leaders
  • sly1340
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Iraqis are like hornets. You come after your nest they sting you. Put poking it with a stick and killing bees is only going to make the matter worse. Bush keeps Saddam's gun and shows it to people to say "Hey look! I have Saddams gun! In his face!" . If thats not stupid i don't know what is... any way

however i agree with you on the getting back at them for the twin towers
  • Smokenjoe
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Post 3+ Months Ago

lol, the only difference is that bees dont support people who run airplanes up your butt. The queen also doesnt kill thousands of their own kind. ;)
  • IH8Purple
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Smokenjoe wrote:
lol, the only difference is that bees dont support people who run airplanes up your butt. The queen also doesnt kill thousands of their own kind. ;)


and the americains don't put the queen into power, or sell her stingers of mass destruction
  • Cae
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Post 3+ Months Ago

ok, i see where this is going, i have stated all my opinions on this before... you can read them, and the whole debate i had with ih8purple about it here: http://www.ozzu.com/general-discussion/spain-t23039.html

*walks away*
  • Smokenjoe
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Post 3+ Months Ago

lol, And I have also posted with this before, talking about the upcoming election. It was quite popular too if I remmember correctly. Im gonna keep watching this one, but I dont think Ill participate anymore. Ive said it all before.

Of course if someone just REALLY gets my goat, Ill have to post....... we'll just see how good my self control is! :lol:
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Smokenjoe wrote:
Their whole religion is based on conversion or killing.


No it's not. Islam is, in fact, one of the more peaceful religions. In fact, traditional Islam is much more tolerant than Judaism or even Christianity. The problems are being caused by the fringe, not the mainstream. Not every muslim is willing to blow themselves up to kill americans or anyone else, in fact, most of them aren't.


Smokenjoe wrote:
the ran our own AIRPLANES into our own BUILDINGS on our own SOIL! And you say that we are the ones invading them. BAH! They started it, and we decided it was about time to take out the
trash.


Who ran their plans into our buildings? Iraqis? No. Most of them were Saudis. Why aren't we invading Saudi Arabia then? Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, and the posed no threat to America or anything else. Think about the spin Bush's people gave it. First, it was Iraq was involved in 9/11. When that was proven false, it was, Iraq has WMD, mushroom cloud! ACK! Nope. Now, it's just Iraqi freedom from tyranny. Sounds good, but if the goal was really some altruisic dream (something Bush and team are incapable of), then there were MANY places in need of regime change that are much worse than Iraq. Trust me, I've been to those places (ok.. some of them) and seen the crap for myself (Rwanda, Sudan, Sierra Leone, East Timor.. this list can go on and on). Iraq was a wonderland under Sadaam. This was a war of choice, and a bad one, that was instigated on lies because Bush and his team all really hated Sadaam and wanted access to all the money and resources Iraq represented. Period. Greed and Revenge.


Smokenjoe wrote:
You act like we are there for the simple pleasure of murdering babies. Thats complete bull. Bush may be a Texan, but hes not stupid, and his military generals certainly have a lot more experience in these matters than you or I.

Oh, and us killing civilians, I dont agree with that, but you know what, its called war. The supposed "noble" terrorists who are backed into a corner use the general population as a shield. If they are so good, then why the hell do they fight so dirty with no care for the civilians?


No, I realize that the American army is just doing it's job. You're right, it's war, and it's a dirty business, and American troops are very good at it. My point is that this war was unjustified when, given the current rational, there are many other countries than needed our brining of freedom more than Iraq. Iraq at least had a secular government under Sadaam. Terrorists aren't noble, any more than any soldier is. These tatics are called terrrorism when they are against our interests, they are called guerilla tactics otherwise...

If America was invaded and enemy troops were walking down your street, are you telling me you wouldn't use whatever tactics you could think of to fight them off, including planting improvised bombs and trying to take out any civilians they brought along? You can bet your ass I would. I'm not interested in joining the Army, but if some forigen power invaded America, you bet I'd pick up a gun and shoot at them, Red Dawn style... heh. Remember that movie? The Russians called the Wolverines terrorists...

.c
  • Cae
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Post 3+ Months Ago

guerilla warfare does not involve flying planes into buildings, and it does not involve using civilians and mosques, etc as sheilds...
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Why not? It's just asyncronous warfare. South American guerilla "Freedom Fighter" backed by the US Military and CIA base themselves in churchs and have no problem killing and torturing supporters of their enemies. Those govenments don't have many planes or massive symbolic buildings, and those guerillas lack the education to be able to fly them, but if they did, you would certianly see more of it.

I'm not condoning any of it. I think war and fighting is all pretty absurd across the board. The point is, though, you gotta call a spade a spade. The ends don't justify the means. In the eyes of the so-called "middle east street" the actions we so simply call "terrorist" are being increasing considered heroic, all because western nations are allowing thrist for vengance overcome reason.

The real power of America is economic. We have all the money, they have none of it. When it comes to the world ecomony, America hold all the cards. If we stopped buying middle east oil, say in protest, even for a couple days, their economies would crumble completely (and despite what Bush says, the US has enough reserves to do something like that).

Instead, we persue a path of violence and bloodshed, that only begets more violence and bloodshed. It's unnecessary in a global economy already dominated by US interests. Bush just likes to act tough... he seems to get off being a War President like his daddy.

Reminds me of a song:

Quote:
"Heaven Is Falling" by Bad Religion

As I walk beneath the valley
I shall fear no evil
for thanks to King George and his rainbow cabinet
today murder is legal
God I know that it's wrong
to kill my brother for what he hasn't done
and as the planes blacken the sky
it sounds like heaven is falling
it sounds like heaven is falling
you promises me a new day a'dawning
I've seen a thousand points of light
like so many points of hatred, shame and horror
God I want to be a man
but I don't want to die with a rifle in my hand
and as the planes blacken the sky
it sounds like heaven is falling
it sounds like heaven is falling
you promised me a new day a'dawning
well nothing here looks new to me
but a score of mothers' sons
caught 'tween the devil and the deep blue sea



.c
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

dude, islam is all about killing? Yeah, Ok.

Bear in mind islam judaism and christianity all have the same god and are based on the same core. I'm f***ing fed up of hearing rasist crap like this "islamic terrorists". Yeah, well <i>that</i> explains everything then. The xenophobic media and government manipulting the minds of those with less understanding.

Take Northern Ireland, christians killing each other over religion - and that is <i>just</i> about religion, not culture or anything else. All christians are murdering bloodthirsty b***ards then, yeah? Every single last one of them.

*deep breath

The majority of muslims denounce the terrorists. It is wrong to kill in islam, the Qur'an also says that it is a sin to kill yourself. The suicide bombers are not adhering to the religion, but their extremist leaders are <b>using</b> the religion as a manipulative force, the same way extremist christians have done throughout the centuries.

Like it or not, they are no different to us. I know that upsets people because we like to say oh they are different in some way so that must be a reason.

gurrilla warfare:
Quote:
Lacking the numerical strength and weapons to oppose a regular army in the field, guerrillas avoid pitched battles. Instead, they operate from bases established in remote and inaccessible terrain, such as forests, mountains, and jungles, and depend on the support of the local inhabitants for recruits, food, shelter, and information.


Limited resourses, shelter from civilians, get the idea. Guerrilla warfare is based around limited manpower, weapons and resourses. Fighting against the most powerful (martially) and probbably richest country in the world, yes they qualify as guerrillas. And their methods are consistant with guerilla techniques

Also iraq and the terrorists are very different things, everyone ties them together but thats dumb. 9/11 was an excuse to invade iraq, not a reason. Saddam hussein never had any means of threatening us, and did not threaten us, but propaganda and ignorance was enough to let us invade him.

To say that they started it is rediculous. Thats like if the USA attacked britain, we go off and attack brazil - it's all in the same part of the world so what difference does it make?

If spain were to cnotinue along the path of warfare, there would be no benefit - you slap someone and they get angry. These people feel they have nothing to lose (even their lives are worth it remember). They have a cause to fight, and the best way to reinforce the ideals of a cause - give them more martyrs.

If someone is feeling oppressed and is fighting against that oppression, increasing the forece will only increase their resolve.
  • sly1340
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i totally agree with him

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