Internet Explorer

  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

Is there any particular reason why Internet Explorer is so poor at supporting web standards? I just cannot see why much smaller organisations can create standards-compliant browsers, but M$IE has so many bugs. Is it incompetance or just sheer arrogance?


BTW i'm <b>not</b> trying to start a "which browser is better" thread, which I know has been done to death.
  • SecureITGroup
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 293

Post 3+ Months Ago

Just seems that Microsoft Always trys to incorporate so much nice neat and easy meathods of access to sources that there is holes. Think of how micosoft started to ship Windows XP with remote desktop connection well by doing that there is a port that is supject to criminal activity. Port 3385 i think correct me on that port if i am rong. They just make things too complicated and are unable to over see all the code for holes.
  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

Yeah I can understand them making windows so complicated, but IE? It doesn't have any fancy features or special abilities or all the automagical stuff that windows does to complicate things. And their bugs are posted all over the internet, it seems strange that they don't <b>try</b> to fix them.

So thats a vote for incompetance then SecureITGroup?
  • SecureITGroup
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 293

Post 3+ Months Ago

Good point i over looked at how simple it is to write a browser. A basic browser can be written in 6 buttons, 1 text box, one WebBrowser Componet, and one progress bar in Visual Basic.
  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

not really - the webbrowser component is just internet explorer embedded in the browser. In the same way you can "write" an mp3 decoder/player in 15 mins. You haven't written the browser, anymore than you wrote the code that says how to display the form or the text box.

Unless you are being sarcastic :? I'm confused now.
  • SecureITGroup
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 293

Post 3+ Months Ago

you got it "Unless you are being sarcastic I'm confused now"
  • Rascob
  • Novice
  • Novice
  • Rascob
  • Posts: 31

Post 3+ Months Ago

pcs have already become a device anyone wants/can have in his home. You just can't give mozilla to a person who touches the keyboard for the first time in his life. He wants, when he accesses, let's say, streaming video to view it immediatly. He doesn't want to be bothered with "save it to disk" and things like that. This is just an example, there are millions(ok, not exactly :P) like it.
Once windows is the conqueror among OSs (at least for newbies) and has IE already installed, most of these noobs(or me, you, anyone) are satisfied. Have in mind that most users wouldn't mind about the security. Why would he give a f***k?
Sto, administrators are obliged to set the first priority as the compatibility with IE. So simple...

Sorry for my pathetic english :P I hope you got the main idea :P

edit: I use Firefox, and I'm not at all an MS fan :)
  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

Hey Rascob, Your english isn't too bad (I'm sure it's better than I could speak your language :wink: ). I get the idea of what you are saying but I'm not sure how this relates to the buggy nature of Internet explorer.

Are you saying that IE is more complex than the other browsers because it is more user friendly? And this is the reason that MS "overlook" standards compliance because they are concentrating on other things? Thats the impression I got from your post, and I can see your point, Firefox is pretty streamlined in comparison.
  • Carnix
  • Guru
  • Guru
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1098

Post 3+ Months Ago

My grip with IE (and MS in general, when it comes to web browers) isn't the bugs exactly. The average web user doesn't know W3C standards, and really, they don't care. You mention IE doesn't do this, Mozilla doesn't do that... they glaze over and start drooling.

IE has a large number of proprietary features that are really pretty cool. Back in the 4.0 days, IE was DRIVING the browsers standards development. IE's DOM was way more open and accessible than any other browser and now, that DOM model has been adopted under W3C standards.

My personal grip is that it was Microsoft driving that. They are so powerful that they can use their market power to drive the standards. In some ways this is good, because at least there's a standard, but I don't really like that standards are being made based on the market-driven direction of a single corporation, because in most cases, there are probably better ways to do things. Under the capitalist system we have (and any other system, frankly), though, those better ways won't be done because true altruism doesn't exist.

Sorry, that really jumped off topic, but I couldn't help myself :oops:

.c
  • Rascob
  • Novice
  • Novice
  • Rascob
  • Posts: 31

Post 3+ Months Ago

Yup, something like that... Let alone there's the automatic windows update now...
A normal user, new to PCs, has: An antivirus, a spyware detection prog, a firewall, and knows nothing about viruses, security, or if kazaa is full of adware(i don't say he should, it's just the pc "nature").
Why should M$ care then?
  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

I don't know if I agree that the standards are still pushed by the big companies (MS and NS). Yes they do have some influence - alpha transparency will become standard in CSS3 for example. Mostly it is the w3c pushing forwards the standards and to be honest, Microsoft is falling behind. MS still does not have support for CSS1 (which has been knocking around for 5 years in it's current form - 8 since it was first published). They also have a sloppy support for the DOM. The support of non-standard 'shorthand' Javascript can really f*** over some new developers.

My opinion:
MS loosley supports the w3c standards, and keeps itself slightly off target for the following reason:

new developers will start to develop in IE first, and end up coding just or for IE. Their sites only work in IE, so users of the competition browsers cannot view the website, thus perpetuating their dominance in the browser market. I think it's sheer arrogance on their part that has left them trailing way behind everyone else in the brower quality department.
  • Carnix
  • Guru
  • Guru
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1098

Post 3+ Months Ago

rtm223 wrote:
...
MS loosley supports the w3c standards, and keeps itself slightly off target for the following reason:

new developers will start to develop in IE first, and end up coding just or for IE. Their sites only work in IE, so users of the competition browsers cannot view the website, thus perpetuating their dominance in the browser market.
...


I couldn't agree more. The problem is, this has the end effect of driving the standards. If 95% of all users see things one way, it would be silly for the W3C to ignore that and establish standards no one will ever use (not can't now, but WILL NEVER... unless MS backs down and does it, which they will only if there is profit in it... which there really won't be because they control the market already). If they did ignore this reality, they would become obsolete very quickly, so they won't.

While MS has lagged behind recently, it used to be the other way around by far. In the 4.0 era where there really was no standard for DHTML, using JS in IE was so much easier than on Netscape. Now, as long as you're not pusing the evelope too far, things will more or less work.

I usually code for Mozilla on my SUSE box. I've found that if it works ok on a Linux Mozilla, only minor tweeking needs to be done for the same thing to work on IE 5.5+ on PC, and Safari (Mac). IE 5 on Mac is another ballgame... that browser is wacked.

.c
  • rtm223
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1855
  • Loc: Uk

Post 3+ Months Ago

Carnix wrote:
I usually code for Mozilla on my SUSE box. I've found that if it works ok on a Linux Mozilla, only minor tweeking needs to be done for the same thing to work on IE 5.5+ on PC, and Safari (Mac). IE 5 on Mac is another ballgame... that browser is wacked.


code for the "proper" standards and you can tweak for IE - thats exactly what I do. ATNO said something about this on a different thread, that development is much easier when standards-based.


Quote:
it would be silly for the W3C to ignore that and establish standards no one will ever use


I don't know about that, there's plenty of standards they have implemented that have nothing to do with internet explorer, and that internet explorer refuses to support - but the w3c are still going with them. I think MS are dragging their heels a bit, but their slowly being pulled along. I think the w3c are starting to strike out on their own because they have enough respect from the development community that they aren't having to just piece together bits of propriatory NS code and propriatory MS code to make some kind of mess.

I don't think the w3c will become obselete - no one can deny the need for web standards. Even Microsoft don't deny the need, they just lie about their support for the standards and pretend to be compliant lol. Whilst there is still a need for web standards, which will always be the case, we will always need a w3c.
  • Carnix
  • Guru
  • Guru
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 1098

Post 3+ Months Ago

Yeah, except the key to western society has always been "follow the money"

Over time, MS will lag a bit, because there isn't enough profit in keeping up, and other times, they'll start driving the change, as happened in the 4.0 era because Netscape was actually giving MS some competition. Right now, there is no real competition. In time, as developers get more fed up with IE and stop developing for it's non-standard features, MS will start innovating again, because they'll start seeing their markey share drop (probably a whole percent or two... heh).

Microsoft powerful and rich enough to do great and terrible things... You've seen RoboCop, right? OCP isn't exactly unimaginable...

.c

Post Information

  • Total Posts in this topic: 14 posts
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests
  • You cannot post new topics in this forum
  • You cannot reply to topics in this forum
  • You cannot edit your posts in this forum
  • You cannot delete your posts in this forum
  • You cannot post attachments in this forum
 
cron
 

© 1998-2014. Ozzu® is a registered trademark of Unmelted, LLC.