Obama on health care

  • mk27
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 334

Post 3+ Months Ago

So I just listened to Obama's speech live on the radio, I was pretty impressed with the idea if he gets it, altho I think he should have pushed something way more "left" and forget the possibility of him being perceived as a middle path guy, since obviously the far right in America has singled him out as some demonic new entity that could not be anything "moderate", maybe this is racial :lol:

Anyway, I'm a Canadian who's been living in the US for years, and the health care debate has been a riot in the sense that Canada is one of the examples constantly held up as something to avoid because they are too much "socialisticly" so or something*. By riot I mean that I grew up being able to walk into ANY hospital or doctor and get treated just like anyone else and not have to pay for anything, which is a stark stark contrast with life here in the US, so the whole idea that any significant percentage of the population would be objecting to "Canadian" style health care is nearly psychotic.

But if Obama succeeds, it could be like a big day in history, since American really does lead the world in many ways. While it may be one of the last developed nations to implement universal heath care, it could also be an example to the developing world if it does.

* what they say about Europe is a constant comedy
  • Anonymous
  • Bot
  • No Avatar
  • Posts: ?
  • Loc: Ozzuland
  • Status: Online

Post 3+ Months Ago

  • digitalMedia
  • a.k.a. dM
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 5149
  • Loc: SC-USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

I find the quips about Canadian healthcare funny, too. Altough I live in South Carolina, I once tried to organize a curling league here. Result was I met every Candadian in town, or darn close to it. They all told me something similar - the planned to stay in the US for their jobs/work, but retire in Canada for health care.

(Oh, actually they all told me another thing, but satellite dishes and the CBC aren't really cogent.)

My Dad was in Nova Scotia a few years ago and hurt his hand. He got treated quickly, efficiently and nicely. I know, that last one is a real kicker for most in the US. We don't associate healthcare with niceness.

I'm also a guy (with family) who's had BC/BS nearly double his premium in about 6 years despite no major illnesses, hospitalizations or claims. My monthly healthcare premium is now more than the last two car payments I had.

The few times I've been to seen a doctor for checkups in the last 6 years, the service sucked in every possible way. Despite a premium on the move up, BC/BS automattically rejected the claim filed by my doctor - as a matter of course.

I'm for change in US healthcare on many levels and in many ways.
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

I think they shoudl drop the issue. If you've got a crap job and can't afford healthcare... you don't get it. Get another/better job.

I dont' want to pay for the losers of the world.

FYI, I don't have healthcare because I don't want it.
  • Bigwebmaster
  • Site Admin
  • Site Admin
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 9089
  • Loc: Seattle, WA & Phoenix, AZ

Post 3+ Months Ago

I think we have a major problem with healthcare in the United States and I am all up for changes too. Since I am self employed I am one of those individuals who have to pay 3x the rates to get the same coverage as with a big company who can negotiate much better rates since they have a large number of employees. I am insured but only on catastrophic insurance as it just costs so much. I rarely ever goto the doctor, and when I do I still have to pretty much pay the entire bill.

I agree with the fact that everybody should be insured, sort of like car insurance. Who picks up the cost if you goto the emergency room jflynn because for some reason you all of a sudden are dying because you just got into a car accident? Lets say you aren't able to pay because you are unmeployed like many in this country right now? The taxpayers will end up paying it or people who goto the emergency room who can pay will end up paying much higher amounts to cover those who don't pay. It is unfair. Somebody has to pay it.

Did you ever see the movie John Q?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0251160/

Quote:
A down-on-his luck father, whose insurance won't cover his son's heart transplant, takes the hospital's emergency room hostage until the doctors agree to perform the operation.


In this case they check to make sure he can pay before they help him and since he cannot afford it they will just let his son die. They have all the technology to save his son's life but they won't. I understand this is just a movie, but the concept is the same. In my opinion someone who is a citizen of the United States that needs medical help should be able to get it whether they can afford it or not. It shouldn't also empty their life's savings.

While I love living in the United States, I think we probably have one of the worst Health Care systems in the world that is probably overall more pricey and offers less than average care.

There is alot of wasted money with healthcare such as junk lawsuits, overpriced drugs, and some states have barely any competition between insurance companies, etc.

The company my dad works for just dropped all health care coverage for their employees because they can no longer afford to compete and also provide their employees coverage. Lucky for my dad he can get Verteran's Health Insurance. It would be kind of scary if my parent's didn't have health care insurance. They worked hard their whole lives and now at the age they are they definetely need it and couldn't afford it to pay it all on their own.
  • kc0tma
  • o|||||||o
  • Web Master
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 3318
  • Loc: Trout Creek, MT

Post 3+ Months Ago

I have this Montana Unified School Trust insurance, which is pretty good but I still feel it is a waste of my money. I don't go to the doctor very often, and when I do I usually end up paying a lot out of pocket because of the damn deductible.

Having insurance is kind of like gambling. You can buy insurance and spend lots of money on it, but never ever file a claim. Conversley you might never ever have insurance but it will only take one major car accident or tonsilectomy or something and you're screwed.
  • mk27
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 334

Post 3+ Months Ago

Bigwebmaster wrote:
I understand this is just a movie, but the concept is the same. In my opinion someone who is a citizen of the United States that needs medical help should be able to get it whether they can afford it or not. It shouldn't also empty their life's savings.


Here's a reality for you: I have a friend who worked in construction, building houses and highways, etc. since his teenage years, a certified plumber and mechanic, until a point a few years ago in his mid forties when he decided to quit his current job in Florida and move back to NY for a while to care for his mother, who is in her eighties, making some occasional cash fixing cars.

Then a couple months ago he was diagnosed with cancer, and he's been told that since he is no longer insured and cannot pay for the treatment, he will probably die within the year.

Nice!
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

I'd figure out how to pay. that's just the type of person I am.

I'd never collect umemployment or go on Welfare either. It's the same thing all 3.

A bunch of ppl paying for the few.....
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm not trying to be a jerk here so if i offend somebody. sorry.

I just don't believe in "free rides" and I sure as hell don't want to be paying for somebodies.

This country has/is moving from a Capitalist Sociaty to a Socialist one.

No more does "the best man gets the job" and "the best company makes the money" in the U.S.

If you have the money you pay for those that don't. Where is the motivation to do good? It's very sad!
  • digitalMedia
  • a.k.a. dM
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 5149
  • Loc: SC-USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

jflynn wrote:
I'm not trying to be a jerk here so if i offend somebody. sorry.


Not offending me! I had quite a good laugh at every 1 dimensional thing you wrote. :lol:
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

well when things are black and white you onle need one dimension :P
  • digitalMedia
  • a.k.a. dM
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 5149
  • Loc: SC-USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

jflynn wrote:
well when things are black and white you onle need one dimension :P


Ah, if it were only that simple.

All that I would ask is that you show me some proof of your assertions. Show me a nation anywhere on earth, at any point in history, that advanced itself with an "everyone for themselves, damn the rest" philosophy.
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

Cmon, i can only choose from Earth bases countries? WTF?

you mentioned Canada's awesome system. It's one that argues for my side. Look at the Tax Rates in Canada that help pay for it.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
  • kc0tma
  • o|||||||o
  • Web Master
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 3318
  • Loc: Trout Creek, MT

Post 3+ Months Ago

I use to go to ozzuland to escape the bickering on fox news and msnbc, now what am I going to do?
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

fair enough, i'll drop it......for now :P
  • digitalMedia
  • a.k.a. dM
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 5149
  • Loc: SC-USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

jflynn wrote:
Cmon, i can only choose from Earth bases countries? WTF?

you mentioned Canada's awesome system. It's one that argues for my side. Look at the Tax Rates in Canada that help pay for it.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html


I think I'm missing your point here. Their overall tax rate is between 15% and 29%. Umm, ours is between 10% and 35%. Like our government, I would guess the largest segment of spending is military. I don't know though.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is.

(sorry kc0tma)

Actually, I didn't say Canada's healthcare system was awesome. I said the people whom I've known have spoken quite positively of it.
  • joebert
  • Fart Bubbles
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 13502
  • Loc: Florida

Post 3+ Months Ago

Imagine.

Attachments:
us-health.jpg
  • SB
  • Moderator
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 8742
  • Loc: Aberdeen, Scotland

Post 3+ Months Ago

Sounds like the system that Canada has is the same the UK has. To be honest, i cannot imagine living in a country where you have to pay for your healthcare.

Even though i've known of the way America's healthcare system works for quite a while now it has actually come as a bit of a shock to me to hear that America has this system in place.

I think for that reason i am finding it hard to see where you are coming from jflynn. I don't for a second believe that people will lose the motivation to succeed just because they don't have to pay for healthcare.
  • joebert
  • Fart Bubbles
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 13502
  • Loc: Florida

Post 3+ Months Ago

Well one thing's for sure. I'd love to get my hand looked at knowing it isn't going to cost me my other hand to do so. I had to have broken or fractured something in there two or three years ago now, it still feels, "different", and is always in "bearable" but constant pain. I'm afraid to do a lot of things with it out of fear it will get worse.
  • UPSGuy
  • Lurker ಠ_ಠ
  • Web Master
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2733
  • Loc: Nashville, TN

Post 3+ Months Ago

If people are determined to live off government/tax payers/us/however-you-want-to-put-it, then they're going to do just that. Even without a universal plan, I know of a married couple with a child who abuse the heck out of the system. Parents are on Medicaid, child is on WIC, and they eat WAY better than I do - with foodstamps, they get $575 a month NOT including what's already covered for the baby by WIC!

The dog eats STEAKS for dinner because EBT covers it and they have a freezer full of them - dog food costs money!

Throw a little unemployment into the mix, and you get a lazy couple living off said sources who are in NO hurry to find jobs whatsoever (even though they 'apply' here and there to appease unemployment).
  • Bogey
  • Genius
  • Genius
  • Bogey
  • Posts: 8388
  • Loc: USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

Universal Health Plan... are we really not going to pay for the service? I'm pretty sure the taxes would go up to accommodate such health plan... only good thing is every working person is contributing something to the system.

It got easier for the unemployed though... not that I'm trying to say that if someone is unemployed, then make it hell for that person. That person might honestly not be able to find a job.

Greatest motivation is work so you could afford to buy stuff, but when a person is able to get things for free and have it better than people who actually work... completely removes any motives to work.

A lot of people are happy just to gain the bare minimum living accommodations and poor quality of living through welfare.

...
  • joebert
  • Fart Bubbles
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 13502
  • Loc: Florida

Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
I know of a married couple with a child who abuse the heck out of the system. Parents are on Medicaid, child is on WIC, and they eat WAY better than I do - with foodstamps, they get $575 a month NOT including what's already covered for the baby by WIC!


How well do you know them ?
People on programs are really good at looking like they have a lot when in reality they don't have as much as it might seem. It makes it easier for them to make it through the day if they can trick themselves into believing they have more than they do, which just happens to be something other people are able to see as well.

Quote:
The dog eats STEAKS for dinner because EBT covers it and they have a freezer full of them


The same stuff that you would get fresh from the butcher, or are they buying a bucketload of steak that's set to get ground up into hamburger the next day and they happen to get it for the hamburger price ?
You are aware that the "good hamburger" is just steaks and other premium cuts of meat that are getting too old to look pretty as steaks in the display case right ?

What are they going without to eat "well" ? I bet they can't say they were able to take their day off to climb through their brand new house stringing lines for Internet, cable TV, X-boxes, etc. ;)
  • Bogey
  • Genius
  • Genius
  • Bogey
  • Posts: 8388
  • Loc: USA

Post 3+ Months Ago

joebert wrote:
Imagine.

us-health.jpg


That has actually happened to someone my family's friend knew.

He got into a severe car crash and needed immediate medical care. The only thing though is that he didn't have insurance and was broke...

The doctors refused working on him until they found someone who was willing to pay for him...
  • UPSGuy
  • Lurker ಠ_ಠ
  • Web Master
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2733
  • Loc: Nashville, TN

Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
How well do you know them ?


Very. Immediate family - every family has a black sheep, right? heh I'm pretty intimate with the details of most every stunt they've pulled thus far.

Quote:
The same stuff that you would get fresh from the butcher


Yep, same steaks your or I would go for at any major grocery chain's meat dept. I asked why the steaks and their answer - "If he was out in the wild, this is the closest to what he would eat" :roll:

Quote:
What are they going without to eat "well" ? I bet they can't say they were able to take their day off to climb through their brand new house stringing lines for Internet, cable TV, X-boxes, etc.


lol, nope, that they can't. I hope I don't give the impression that I'm jealous of what they have, because unlike them, I can see that they have nothing but a long road ahead of them. What they don't mooch from the gov, they get from the family, though, so they have a cabin on a waterfront that's paid for, a car they didn't pay for, and a WHOLE LOT of baggage (emotional/financial/name it) between them. They use unemployment to pay utilities, phone, gas and cable. Worst part is that their financial state is ruined for the rest of their lives and so much more but they live for the now and never for the future. You're right on with the illusion theory. They really do believe they are on vacation or something. One day their dream's going to fall apart and my family won't be here to help them any more and he'll be out of enablers to lean on. I hate more than anythhing that the child has to go through it (currently 1.5 years old). :( He is SO sweet, but in for such a rough life.
  • mk27
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 334

Post 3+ Months Ago

$575 per month for a family of 3?4? to eat doesn't sound like an outrageous amount to me, altho AFAIK, the EBT amount for an individual is $150 month (and I know a few people with them). That's $5 a day.

Apparently, overall productivity per worker has gone up in the US during the recession, to compensate for lay-offs; ie, people are fired to cut costs, and then the people who remain working have to do slightly more work.

A capitalist economy requires unemployment in order to work, because this keeps wages down and ensures a ready "labour pool" -- people who can be employed quickly and cheaply when needed, and fired when not.

Who those people are is more or less a matter of musical chairs. It seems to me that if some people are going to benefit, grotesquely, from this arrangement, then those people need to feel some obligation, thru taxes or whatever, to those who do not benefit.

I can kind of understand jflynn's perspective, but the reason I would choose not to think that way is that it eliminates the pretence of or need for any respect between citizens. So, if I'm smart enough to get away with it, I might as well walk into jflynn's place, tie him to a chair, take everything of value I want, and then blow jflynn's head off to complicate any investigation. Why would I feel any sort of guilt about that? To paraphrase jflynn, I don't care about the losers of the world, such as the chimp without a face tied to his chair, or what becomes of them because of my greed, complacency, and general behavior.

Thus, in the interest of my own mental health, I'd rather think of a nation and it's citizens (at least) as being bound together by some human sentiment, or committed to some higher ideal other than you don't care about me, I don't care about you, so what? In that case, the only purpose "the nation" serves is to provide infrastructure and protection to corporations, who use this set-up to extract all the wealth from the nation's resources (including its people) and keep it, giving nothing back. Not exactly what I would call "the land of the brave and free", more like "a land of coerced and ignorant losers".
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

You guys are missing my point completly.

I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE.

that is what nationalized heathcare is about. my taxes helps you remove a kidney. i don't care about your kidney. i care about my money being in my pocket (unless i donate to a charity or something i believe in, which i do from time to time)

that site i linked to was just the income tax i think, everything else is taxed high as well.
  • jflynn
  • Mastermind
  • Mastermind
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 2305
  • Loc: Baker City, Oregon

Post 3+ Months Ago

I have an EX girlfirend that was on WIC and drove around in a new Lincoln Navigator.

One of the people that abuse the system for their own good and one of the reasons that she is the "EX"
  • grinch2171
  • Moderator
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 6807
  • Loc: Martinsburg, WV

Post 3+ Months Ago

The closest thing we have to a nationalized health care system is what is currently provided to the military. I could at any time walk in and get seen, no co-pays (there were some co-pays for various things like mental health), no ridiculous forms to fill out. I just showed them my military ID and for the most part that was all I needed, same went for my wife and kids. Never got a bill for any of it except the birth of my daughter and that was $33 and that was for one night stay in the hospital and a meal. Granted most of my doctor visits were on a military installation and the quality of the doctors varied but in emergency situations I could go to a hospital and be seen without issue. And guess what, we are all paying for it, do you have a problem with that? I would hope not but you don't even realize it but you are. Part of your taxes helps support Tricare.
Quote:
The TRICARE program provides care for the military’s uniformed personnel and retirees, and for their dependents and survivors — in all, more than 9 million people. In 2008, the Department of Defense spent $42 billion on TRICARE, about 6 percent of total defense spending. The Congressional Budget Office forecast that TRICARE will consume 13 percent of total defense spending by 2026.

So think of nationalized healthcare like Tricare for everyone instead of just the military.
  • natas
  • PHP Ninja
  • Proficient
  • natas
  • Posts: 308
  • Loc: AFK

Post 3+ Months Ago

jflynn wrote:
I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE.


You already are silly!
  • mk27
  • Proficient
  • Proficient
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 334

Post 3+ Months Ago

jflynn wrote:
You guys are missing my point completly.

I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE.


No, you just want all the other things the government provides for you, such as a safe, productive, competitive environment in which to work, make money, and live your life.

My point is that would be much, much more difficult if it were not provided to you, because I will show up with a shotgun and ruin it but quick. Well not really, I'm not violent; but that is the situation in some places, eg, under the Taliban.

So you cannot claim that society and the government is doing nothing for you. That is paid for with something. Your problem is you do not want to give, you want only to take. People like that are generally recognized as "selfish pigs" and are kind of hard to take seriously, unless they are also violent ;) Which makes me think of a joke someone told me about those "Reaper" drones:

Q: What does a goblin say to a ghoul?
A: HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
  • SB
  • Moderator
  • Genius
  • User avatar
  • Posts: 8742
  • Loc: Aberdeen, Scotland

Post 3+ Months Ago

Whoa, hang on. So you guys have to pay if your wife has a baby in a hospital?

Maybe i am just used to the National Health Service we have in the UK, but i find that completely wrong.
  • Anonymous
  • Bot
  • No Avatar
  • Posts: ?
  • Loc: Ozzuland
  • Status: Online

Post 3+ Months Ago

Post Information

  • Total Posts in this topic: 63 posts
  • Users browsing this forum: demonmaestro and 66 guests
  • You cannot post new topics in this forum
  • You cannot reply to topics in this forum
  • You cannot edit your posts in this forum
  • You cannot delete your posts in this forum
  • You cannot post attachments in this forum
 
 

© 1998-2014. Ozzu® is a registered trademark of Unmelted, LLC.