Just don't get it

  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Newbie here, so don't flame me too bad if I'm breaking any rules.

Try this search in Google: march madness

Someone PLEASE explain to me how the #5 ranked page out of 2,480,000 is this one:

http://www.provide.net/~brewpaul/

About to pull out what's left of my hair!!! :x
  • Cibok
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It has a DMOZ listning with that keyprhaze in it!
http://dmoz.org/Sports/Basketball/Fan_Pages/
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

His PageRank is very high and if you look at his cached site, that term is only found on links pointing to his site. I am guessing he has dozens of sites pointing to him with the term "march madness" in the anchor text. These two mixed together can get you to great positioning.

An example:
Search for "miserable failure"

You think the #1 site has that term in any part of the site?....no.
Its all because of incoming links and high Pagerank.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thanks for your responses.

OK, I understand that DMOZ listings can greatly affect rankings. However, the page has nothing to do with March Madness. No text. No meta. No links. NO NOTHING.

The last time it did (according to archive.org) was Nov. of 1992. So is Google ignoring the irrelevance of the page when crawling it and just defaulting to the fact that its on DMOZ?
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You can always report to DMOZ that this page has nothing do to with March Madness and is password protected.

You should be able to do this at http://www.resource-zone.com.
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Wow...This guy is doing this on only 4 links with march madness in every one of them.... No links in yahoo, msn, or alta vista. My guess is this is a product of being part of a larger domain http://www.provide.net has over 1500 pages in the google index.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Whatever it is, it is the biggest hole in Google's algorithm I've seen. A shame and enough to get me more bitter than I already am.

Any other thoughts?
  • Axe
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hey, we should stat up a site...

"Things that suck about Google"....

Get everybody linking to it with the anchor text "Google"... See if we can out-do them on their own search ;)
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Grogger wrote:
OK, I understand that DMOZ listings can greatly affect rankings.


This is not true. The PR you get from a DMOZ page eg:4 is the same value as a link from another PR4 site. If it Google did this would then be "Hilltop” and that’s not implemented by Google yet.

The only way a DMOZ listing is greater than another is when other websites use DMOZ to power a directory but when they do the PR is most often below 4 and would not show up in back links and any ranking boost is small.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Johan007,

If it's not the case, how do you explain that ranking?
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

cos of DMOZ...

However what I am saying is that if another site eg: yours was to link to it via:

2 PR 7 links with the link text of your search term
2 PR 4 links with the link text of your search term

then it should* equal it.

*some smaller PR links may be hidden from the back links and they may or may not have an effect on ranking.

You can start by adding a small signature link to in forums (though they have know to be suddenly devalued from sites like phpbb so don’t rely on them)
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Then again, he may have 200 PR3 links from 200 other sites all with that term in the anchor text. With, DMOZ...the PR from DMOZ does not carry anymore weight than any other site, but the category you are listed in DMOZ can greatly effect your positioning, at least what I have experienced.
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hey vetofunk....tell us more about the effect of the category you choose in DMOZ.....please!
  • discountdomains
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Post 3+ Months Ago

March Madness is an usual phrase so there are probably not many sites optimised for that phrase.

But a lot may have a mention of it on them, hence the 2,5m listing on Google.

Clare
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well its nothing that I have concrete evidence of, but I have read opinions in the past that Google uses DMOZ category information to compare with your site to better position your site in Google. When Google would place the directory link under your site in their serps, I noticed that the top positions were always in a similiar category in DMOZ. It is a good idea if you think about it. This way, it helps Google find out what is spam and what is actually a relevant site. When I go looking to submit links to sites, I always check what sites are in my DMOZ category and which ones are in similiar categories.

This all has just been my experience. Most people do this anyway. Bottom line is that you should always submit your site to the most relevant category in DMOZ.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Agree that it is not that common a phrase, however, just about EVERY other site of the 2.5 Million are more "optimized" than that listing (including title tags including the term, meta, the term in the body, content, etc.).

That one has nothing. HAD something at one point, but thought the reason for having bots was to keep their listing current.
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It was a high Pagerank and probably has many links, under PR4 coming into it. Like I said before, if you don't think it belongs in that category in DMOZ, report it to DMOZ. Its so easy, and they usually give you a response about it in the forums in less than 24 hours.
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

makes sense......thanks
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I ran a backlink checker on that site and it only showed 4 backlinks in google, 0 backlinks in Intomki, Alta Vista and Yahoo....It would be highly unlikely that lots of low PR backlinks existed and none of these other engines picked them up....check out the stats on the parent domain that this directory sits in.....
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

vetofunk,
Thanks for your responses. Should have mentioned that it is not this specific site that is my concern. Rather, my concern is an algorithm that would "see" that site as the 5th most relevant.

In my limited experience, dealing with DMOZ is like having a conversation with a stuffed animal. You do all the talking, never get a response, and end up coming out of the experience looking stupid and feeling frustrated.

On a side note, I submitted my site to them 6 months ago. Never heard anything, never got listed, etc. Have sent an email on the 1st of every month trying to even see if a human being exists over there, and have never gotten a response.

Anybody know a way to, or better yet know a contact at DMOZ?
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Have you gone through http://www.resource-zone.com? It is DMOZ's forum. They allow you to ask submission status once a month and you always get a response.
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
dealing with DMOZ is like having a conversation with a stuffed animal
....right on! :cry:
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

vetofunk,

No, I have not gone through resource-zone.com (saw your earlier post which linked deeper but I was confused as to where I was ... doesn't take much).

Would the "submission forum" be the place to go to check on submission status? Seems likely, but the last thing I want to do as a newbie there is start stepping on toes.

Thanks again for your help.
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yes, but they are very "cranky" there. Make sure you read the guidelines. You need to tell them and make a link to your site, and then the place where you submitted it to (category wise) and make a link to the actual category. Lastly you need to tell them the date you submitted it.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Glad I asked ... yikes!
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

But, def do it. Youll find out right away on the status of your site. Besides that, there is nothing you can do to get your site listed quicker. I am an editor there, but for only 2 small categories, otherwise I would try to help.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

you've been a big enough help already, and I really appreciate it. Will post tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Regards,
Matt
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

vetofunk,

Posted and got the reply ...

"The submission is awaiting editorial review."

Is 3 months an unreasonable amount of time to wait? What are my next steps?
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yep, thats what you usually hear. I have been waiting almost 4 months for 2 of my sites now. It all depends on the category. There is really nothing else you can do.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

vetofunk,
Curious how much time one needs to devote to be an effective DMOZ editor? Is it something you'd recommend? Thoughts?

Thanks
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well it depends on the category and what shape its in. They will not let you start on a large directory, so if you decide to apply, apply for something very small. I have 2 categories and I update them every 2 weeks. I usually get about 1/2 dozen sites submitted to each every two weeks so its not to bad. I spend about 2 hours every two weeks.

If you want to start editing you can always apply for other directories too. I am an editor for JoeAnt, GoGuides and Zeal as well.
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I am editor for DMOZ, Zeal and JoeAnt.

I have a IT job and find the time to do them in my lunch break (2 to 30 mins depending on how I feel or on a boring wet Sunday afternoon here in the UK.

I like it but I dont know why! Maybe power, maybe cos I want to see what my competitors are doing, maybe cos I want to make the internet search results relavent helping kill spam!
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It would be nice if all us Dmoz editors could help each other out ;-) but I doubt any of us have the categories the rest of us need submissions in.
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You know anyone doing a cat in "Web design"? my portofolio was sumbitted 3 years ago and then I submited it at 6 months and still not listed! :cry:
  • vetofunk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

No I don't, but I expect that category to be backlogged quite a bit.
  • Grogger
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well, I figure I'll submit an app and see what happens. Been a Web App developer for years and used to be an Editor for a legal publishing company, so maybe that'll help ... maybe not :roll:

If I can help the backlog that's been frustrating me even a little bit, it'll be worth it.
  • cyberax
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quite true.

Thanks for the information.

Google do give importance to links from DMOZ and educational sites (.edu).
  • Axe
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Google gives them no more or less importance than being linked from any other page with the same PR.
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Careful when you make comments in a forums that you can have evidence to back up your claims or put IMO / in my opinion.

cyberax wrote:
Google do give importance to links from DMOZ and educational sites(.edu).


Wrong! Hilltop has not been implemented and Axe is correct on his point. You should have known this as your website claims to do a bit of CEO.
  • cyberax
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well ofcourse I do have certain basis on which I derived the above conclusion.

The idea why I said google give high weightage to the Open Directory are as follows:

1. It is hard to get a listing to this.
2. Human edited directory.
3. Google directory takes feed from DMOZ.

Just to prove my point Search Google for "ASP.NET Hosting India" without quotes.

You would find our site on the first page out of 70,000 results

Now visit our site http://www.cyberax.net you would notice apart from the metatags we have only 2 places where we mentioned ASP.NET. Not even the TITLE tag includes ASP.NET

And I do not think we ever had requested for reciprocal linking with the link title having ASP.NET.

So how you think it managed to get to the top for this search phrase.

Regarding .EDU sites this I read it at SEORank.com / linkingmatters.com site but do not remember the exact URL else would have pasted the same.

A quick note:
Google's order of results is automatically determined by more than 100 factors, including PageRank algorithm. Due to the nature of their business and interest in protecting the integrity of their search results, this is the only information that is being made available to the public about their ranking system.

So what we all post is from the knowledge we gain through shared knowledge and experience.

So I still stick to my comment.

Regarding "IMO" I feel whatever I say on the forum is my own opinion untill i mention it specifically. :)

Cheers guys no offence intended ;)
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

maybe my forum post was a little harsh in my quest for evidance. I am going to investigate more sites that rank on Google that are in Dmoz myself as I have always done (something to do this Easter!)
  • dr nick
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I don't have any evidence either, but I also think DMOZ has some added weight, though perhaps less and less. I haven't checked recently for results, but I know that earlier this year many sites in DMOZ were in top positions for one of my categories, even though they didn't have many other links point to them.

Remember also that there are many other directories that automatically link to you since they are based on ODP, so that counts too and could actually be the only factor that makes DMOZ such a bonus...
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
Just to prove my point Search Google for "ASP.NET Hosting India" without quotes.

You would find our site on the first page out of 70,000 results

Now visit our site http://www.cyberax.net you would notice apart from the metatags we have only 2 places where we mentioned ASP.NET. Not even the TITLE tag includes ASP.NET

And I do not think we ever had requested for reciprocal linking with the link title having ASP.NET.

So how you think it managed to get to the top for this search phrase


Not sure if I would use this to prove your point. There are only 17 of the 70,000+ pages that have ASP.NET in the title and mention India on their page....this would be why google had to go deeper into the body content to find matches. I have a #2 ranked site in google and don't have a dmoz listing....I have similar sites that have dmoz listings and don't rank in the top 100 for the same keyphrase....my site that ranks high has lots of content...and a good internal link system.
  • cyberax
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I repeat:

"Google's order of results is automatically determined by more than 100 factors, including PageRank algorithm. Due to the nature of their business and interest in protecting the integrity of their search results, this is the only information that is being made available to the public about their ranking system. "

So how can you be 100% sure that what I am saying is not one of the Factors. Please enlighten us with your share of knowledge.

Cheers,
  • Johan007
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It would be asking a lot of anyone to really prove a point one way or the other unless some one is prepared to do a proper paper with tables and graphs that have all the variables that could answer our hypothesis without any bias.

Hypothesis: A listing on Dmoz has no influence on SE ranking

Variables:
About 10 websites
Dmoz PR and link text
Innboud links PR and link text that’s greater than 4
Inbound links PR and link text less than 4
Key word density
H1 keywords
HTML title key words

Already you going to see a massive matrix so the only feasible way is to do the results on new websites to make it easier – however this may result in wrong conclusions because many people have seen new websites given a large ranking boost only to drop off after 2 or 3 months.

Its not easy to prove anything.
  • cyberax
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You are right :)

Probably someone from Google can help us.

Regards,
Vijay Bhatter

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