total html on page / % content

  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm trying to learn all the basics of SEO at the moment, and one thing that I have seen around from time to time is the fact that the amount of html code before the content makes a difference. This is generally taken as true, but my question is:

Does the total amount of html on the page make a difference? Also does the percentage of useful content text make a difference.

For example, a typical nested table jobby tends to take up ~30kB of which ~10% is actual text for the SE's. My site has efficient coding (CSS-based) and the index page (for eg) weighs in at 7.1kB, with 47% content text.

Does anyone have experience of whether this makes a difference or not? If it does, how much difference will it make?

Thanks in advance for your input.
  • phaugh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The css is a great idea for condensing the code. If you use any java scripts you should keep them in seperate files and not include the code in your page. Any other html that you can avoid without scarificing the look of your page is good as well. Some of the roll over effects and other dhtml filter effects can cause more code than is necessary.

Keep you pages under 100K total size.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thanks for the reply phaugh, I was hoping to get some more but no one ever seems to want to reply to this question, no matter where I post it :?

From your reply, it is hard to tell whether you are saying small filesizes are good for SEO or not. You could just be saying small filesizes are good in general? I know it's not something anyone can give a definate yes or no on, but has anyone seen any indication of reduced html improving SEO?

Is it possible that this is some indication:
axe wrote:
Google knows of all the pages on the regular vBulletin site, and on the text view, without all the fancy extras, but the text views usually seem to turn up higher in appropriate searches.

from: http://www.ozzu.com/other-google-information-and-resources/does-google-spider-forums-t20122.html&hi ... forum+text

Looks like the lack of html gave the pages a boost?

The main reason I ask this is because I already do, and am trying to encourage others to, code with as little html as possible. There are lots of arguments for, but I think being able to tell webmasters that they will get a SERP boost would help to get them listening! I don't want to put the info on my site if there is little evidence to back it up.

Quote:
Keep you pages under 100K total size.
Haha, I don't see this one being a problem in my case, I probably couldn't build a 100k html page if I tried :P
  • madmonk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I think the amount of html hardly matters as long as you keep pages within recommended limits.

so long as the spiders can read them properly, small pages will be as good as big pages.

have good contents

or impossibly good domain names .lol.
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

madmonk wrote:
I think the amount of html hardly matters as long as you keep pages within recommended limits.


Not true. The more that a spider has to dig through the less relevant the page becomes. Also-they don't always read the entire page-so if they went half way through your page and it was mostly td, tr and font tags then your page will appear to be garbage to them.

rtm-if you're still looking for help on SEO let me know, I'll take another look at your site this weekend and give you some suggestions. I'm assuming you are talking about the CSS site?
  • madmonk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
The more that a spider has to dig through the less relevant the page becomes


even if you pumping in your targetted keywords throughout the whole page?? how can the page become less relevent if you are able to maintain your keyword density throughout the whole page :?:
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You can only put so many KWs in a page. Even though you are optimizing for search engines people still have to read the page so it has to be a fine balance. As far as the relevance goes, here are two examples of one of my sites during various stages of redevelopment. You should be able to see the difference pretty easily.

Example 1
Code: [ Select ]
<body
onUnload="leave()"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" link="#003366" vlink="#003366" alink="#003366" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">
<table width="781" border="0" align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
 <!--DWLayoutTable-->
 <tr>
  <td width="10" rowspan="3" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td height="19" colspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp; </td>
  <td width="1"></td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td height="105" colspan="4" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustableairbeds.htm"><img src="img/vss-logo.gif" alt="adjustable air bed, air bed" width="230" height="105" border="0"></a></td>
  <td width="15" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td colspan="3" align="left" valign="middle" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><h1><strong><font color="#003366" size="4" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><em>Call
    today to find out about our 365 night sleep trial!<br />
    800-667-0000 </em></font></strong></h1></td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>
 <tr bgcolor="#99CCFF">
  <td height="19" colspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td height="19" colspan="3" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="135" height="19"></td>
  <td width="5" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="5" height="19"></td>
  <td colspan="3" rowspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="200" height="311">
    <param name="movie" value="img/index%20ani.swf">
    <param name="quality" value="high">
    <embed src="img/index%20ani.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="200" height="311"></embed></object></td>
  <td width="10" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="10" height="19"></td>
  <td width="430" valign="top"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="430" height="19"></td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td rowspan="8" valign="top"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td height="253" colspan="2" align="left" valign="top"> <p><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><font color="#996600">Home</font><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/ourcompany.htm">Our Company</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustableairbeds.htm"> </a></strong></font><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleepsystems.htm">Our
    Sleep System</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/faq.htm">FAQ</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleephealth.htm">Sleep Health</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/healthdir.htm">Health Directory<br>
    </a></strong></font><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleepnews.htm">Sleep
    in the News</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm">Compare systems</a><br />
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/price.htm">Pricing</a><br>
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/contact.htm">Contact Us</a><br>
    </strong></font><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
    <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/wool.htm"><img src="img/v1.jpg" alt="wool" width="35" height="32" border="0"></a></font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sct.htm"><img src="img/v2.jpg" alt="S.C.T." width="35" height="32" border="0"></a></font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/asf.htm"><img src="img/v3.jpg" alt="A.S.F." width="35" height="32" border="0"><br>
    </a> <br>
    </font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/form.htm">Get
    more info!</a></font></strong></p></td>
  <td rowspan="7" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td rowspan="7" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  <td rowspan="4" valign="top"><p><font color="#CC9933" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm"><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><strong><em>How
    do our Sleep Systems compare?</em></strong></font></a><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><em><strong><br />
    </strong></em><font color="#000000" size="2"><em>Click to find out how
    VSS Sleep Systems beds beat springs, foam or water hands down</em></font></font></font></p>
   <p><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustablebeds.htm"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">VSS
    Sleep Systems beds</font></a><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
    are the answer to many of your sleep and health related problems. We have
    a full range of adjustable air beds and accessories you need to create
    your optimal sleep environment. Our advanced technology guarantees you
    the best night sleep possible or your money back! Our customers love our
    Sleep Systems and you will too. </font></font><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Sleep
    Systems from VSS Sleep Systems come with a 10 year warranty!</font> </p>
   <p>VSS Sleep Systems is committed to serving our customers for life. We
    don't sell products, we build relationships. We want you to be so amazed
    at our service that you refer your family and your closest friends with
    out any hesitation. We have a long list of happy customers in the VSS
    family and we look forward to you becoming a member soon as well. Thank
    you for visiting our site.</p></td>
  <td></td>
  1. <body
  2. onUnload="leave()"
  3. bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" link="#003366" vlink="#003366" alink="#003366" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0">
  4. <table width="781" border="0" align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
  5.  <!--DWLayoutTable-->
  6.  <tr>
  7.   <td width="10" rowspan="3" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  8.   <td height="19" colspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp; </td>
  9.   <td width="1"></td>
  10.  </tr>
  11.  <tr>
  12.   <td height="105" colspan="4" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustableairbeds.htm"><img src="img/vss-logo.gif" alt="adjustable air bed, air bed" width="230" height="105" border="0"></a></td>
  13.   <td width="15" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  14.   <td colspan="3" align="left" valign="middle" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><h1><strong><font color="#003366" size="4" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><em>Call
  15.     today to find out about our 365 night sleep trial!<br />
  16.     800-667-0000 </em></font></strong></h1></td>
  17.   <td></td>
  18.  </tr>
  19.  <tr bgcolor="#99CCFF">
  20.   <td height="19" colspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  21.   <td></td>
  22.  </tr>
  23.  <tr>
  24.   <td height="19" colspan="3" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="135" height="19"></td>
  25.   <td width="5" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="5" height="19"></td>
  26.   <td colspan="3" rowspan="8" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="200" height="311">
  27.     <param name="movie" value="img/index%20ani.swf">
  28.     <param name="quality" value="high">
  29.     <embed src="img/index%20ani.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="200" height="311"></embed></object></td>
  30.   <td width="10" valign="top" bgcolor="#99CCFF"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="10" height="19"></td>
  31.   <td width="430" valign="top"><img src="img/2clr-spcr.gif" width="430" height="19"></td>
  32.   <td></td>
  33.  </tr>
  34.  <tr>
  35.   <td rowspan="8" valign="top"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  36.   <td height="253" colspan="2" align="left" valign="top"> <p><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><font color="#996600">Home</font><br />
  37.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/ourcompany.htm">Our Company</a><br />
  38.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustableairbeds.htm"> </a></strong></font><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleepsystems.htm">Our
  39.     Sleep System</a><br />
  40.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/faq.htm">FAQ</a><br />
  41.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleephealth.htm">Sleep Health</a><br />
  42.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/healthdir.htm">Health Directory<br>
  43.     </a></strong></font><font color="#003366" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sleepnews.htm">Sleep
  44.     in the News</a><br />
  45.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm">Compare systems</a><br />
  46.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/price.htm">Pricing</a><br>
  47.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/contact.htm">Contact Us</a><br>
  48.     </strong></font><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
  49.     <a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/wool.htm"><img src="img/v1.jpg" alt="wool" width="35" height="32" border="0"></a></font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/sct.htm"><img src="img/v2.jpg" alt="S.C.T." width="35" height="32" border="0"></a></font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/asf.htm"><img src="img/v3.jpg" alt="A.S.F." width="35" height="32" border="0"><br>
  50.     </a> <br>
  51.     </font></strong><strong><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/form.htm">Get
  52.     more info!</a></font></strong></p></td>
  53.   <td rowspan="7" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  54.   <td rowspan="7" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><!--DWLayoutEmptyCell-->&nbsp;</td>
  55.   <td rowspan="4" valign="top"><p><font color="#CC9933" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm"><font color="#003366" size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><strong><em>How
  56.     do our Sleep Systems compare?</em></strong></font></a><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><em><strong><br />
  57.     </strong></em><font color="#000000" size="2"><em>Click to find out how
  58.     VSS Sleep Systems beds beat springs, foam or water hands down</em></font></font></font></p>
  59.    <p><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/adjustablebeds.htm"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">VSS
  60.     Sleep Systems beds</font></a><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">
  61.     are the answer to many of your sleep and health related problems. We have
  62.     a full range of adjustable air beds and accessories you need to create
  63.     your optimal sleep environment. Our advanced technology guarantees you
  64.     the best night sleep possible or your money back! Our customers love our
  65.     Sleep Systems and you will too. </font></font><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Sleep
  66.     Systems from VSS Sleep Systems come with a 10 year warranty!</font> </p>
  67.    <p>VSS Sleep Systems is committed to serving our customers for life. We
  68.     don't sell products, we build relationships. We want you to be so amazed
  69.     at our service that you refer your family and your closest friends with
  70.     out any hesitation. We have a long list of happy customers in the VSS
  71.     family and we look forward to you becoming a member soon as well. Thank
  72.     you for visiting our site.</p></td>
  73.   <td></td>


Example 2
Code: [ Select ]
<body>
<div class="txthp">
 <h1><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm">How do our Sleep Systems compare?
  </a></h1>
 <p class="one">Click to find out how VSS Sleep Systems beds beat springs, foam
  or water hands down</p>
 <p class="one">VSS Sleep Systems beds are the answer to many of your sleep and
  health related problems. We have a full range of <strong>adjustable air beds</strong>
  and accessories you need to create your optimal sleep environment. Our advanced
  technology guarantees you the best night sleep possible or your money back!
  Our customers love our Sleep Systems and you will too. Sleep Systems from
  VSS Sleep Systems come with a 10 year warranty!</p>
 <p class="one">VSS Sleep Systems is committed to serving our customers for life.
  We don't sell products, we build relationships. We want you to be so amazed
  at our service that you refer your family and your closest friends with out
  any hesitation. We have a long list of happy customers in the VSS family and
  we look forward to you becoming a member soon as well.</p>
</div>
  1. <body>
  2. <div class="txthp">
  3.  <h1><a href="http://www.vsssleep.com/compare.htm">How do our Sleep Systems compare?
  4.   </a></h1>
  5.  <p class="one">Click to find out how VSS Sleep Systems beds beat springs, foam
  6.   or water hands down</p>
  7.  <p class="one">VSS Sleep Systems beds are the answer to many of your sleep and
  8.   health related problems. We have a full range of <strong>adjustable air beds</strong>
  9.   and accessories you need to create your optimal sleep environment. Our advanced
  10.   technology guarantees you the best night sleep possible or your money back!
  11.   Our customers love our Sleep Systems and you will too. Sleep Systems from
  12.   VSS Sleep Systems come with a 10 year warranty!</p>
  13.  <p class="one">VSS Sleep Systems is committed to serving our customers for life.
  14.   We don't sell products, we build relationships. We want you to be so amazed
  15.   at our service that you refer your family and your closest friends with out
  16.   any hesitation. We have a long list of happy customers in the VSS family and
  17.   we look forward to you becoming a member soon as well.</p>
  18. </div>


The first one give you no control over what the SE sees first and is also extremely bloated. With all of the td & tr & font tags your KWs turn out to be a lower %. To get a higher KW density you would have to basically spam your page because of all of the extra code in your page.

IMO, you are putting too much emphasis on you KW density. It's not as important as you think. My page has a very low KW density and I am ranked #1 in Google and #2 in Yahoo & MSN. If you want to improve your rank, focus on getting more inbound text links with your KWs
  • madmonk
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
IMO, you are putting too much emphasis on you KW density.


lol. end of thread :wink:
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

jlknauff wrote:
rtm-if you're still looking for help on SEO let me know, I'll take another look at your site this weekend and give you some suggestions. I'm assuming you are talking about the CSS site?


TBH, just in general. SEO is one of those web design skills I'm trying to learn. The actual question is down to the fact that I don't know whether I should mention the concept of "less code => better serps" on the site. As it is, from the responses on this and other forums I don't think it is appropriate to say as there is little evidnce to back up such a claim.

I personally think it makes sense that less code gives a more relevant page (which is what the SE's are all about, delivering <b>relevant and useful</b> results. Lots of extra code means slower d/l times. Surely if two sites seem equally relevant, but one is going to d/l twice as fast, that makes it more useful to the end user. I think it could potentially tip the balance, but thats about all and of course that is only speculation.

In terms of my own site's SEO, I made a big mistake, which was picking my keywords before I researched what people search for! I've also narrowed down my targetting to much. Focussing on CSS Layout tutorials is a mistake because within a couple of months there will be a lot of work outside of that niche. The words "html" and "web design" are going to be added to my search terms, which is quite a good combo to go with "tutorial" and should still get the right kind of visitors. Plus this will only require a little bit of content rewriting (html is already quite prominant throughout).

I'm also intending a complete overhaul of the site's linking structure using some php, plus some extra bits and pieces as well, so a lot of changes to come, mostly down to a lack of planning for the site as a whole :roll:
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I made the same mistake when I first started making the Jeremy Lang site, fortunately I found a great tool from another website before getting to far down the road on it. My mistake was the same one most people make. I used KWs that I would search for which isn't really relavent. For any decent amount of SE traffic you need to choose based on what most people search for.

Here is a great tool for picking KWs and it's free. There are other paid options as well, but I have never used them.

http://www.prioritysubmit.com/view/main.html

There is another one from digital point solutions, but the KWs seem to be a bit "off" IMO. They havea great tool for checking your rank acctoss a number of KWs though

http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/

Hope these are useful for all of you! :D
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thanks for the links, I'll cross reference (doesn't that sound clever eh?) the results from this one and the overture keyword tool, see what I come up with.

It's funny though because I was just thinking about the keywords thing, and if you look at my front page:
Quote:
css based website design tutorials

I had it right from the start but then I started conciously thinking about the keywords to use and messed it all up, just goes to show you can try to hard sometimes :lol:

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