So, frames are considered bad?

  • uknightuss
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I had done some reading in the search engine forum, and saw it mentioned that crawlers, bots, and spiders don't like sites or pages done with frames.

Is that true?

If it is true then what is the next best thing to use, CSS Layers, I-frames, PHP?

Can someone make a recommendation, or explain the difference between these methods so that I can get a better understanding?

Thanksabunch
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Post 3+ Months Ago

  • neksus
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Post 3+ Months Ago

frames make it hard to navigate a site;
most likely, frames are used to split up navigation. so lets say the 'bot' gets to the navigation page. he clicks the htm (or whatever) file. and now its a dead end. the frames wont open, just the target. so no other links on the page.
iframes are almost as bad, css is the way to go.
php is a programming language - it doesn't really have anything to do with frames/iframes/css.
  • Mr Smith
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Post 3+ Months Ago

must say....of all the sites i've done, i've never ever used frames....or considered using them for that matter....they're work of the devil :twisted:

seriously though.....i can't see any reason to use them....and they're user-unfriendly, as well as se unfriendly.

css is the way!
:idea:
  • neksus
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I've used iframes a few times, thought they were cool until I realized
a) I can achieve it with css and
b) Netscape doesn't render them.
  • mackiller
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yes i had iframes and frames on some of my sites and then i reized what neksus said and learnd css. You can do anything you can do with css that you can do with frames
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Post 3+ Months Ago

neksus wrote:
b) Netscape doesn't render them.


What antiquated version of Netscape are you speaking of, exactly?
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

That would be NS 4.x (every other version I've used work except perhaps 6.0 - which I no longer have a copy of).
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Post 3+ Months Ago

*grins

Remember iLayers? - hahahaha. :lol:

Exactly ATNO! While I'd rather lose my front teeth than use an iFrame, it IS, in fact, currently supported by common browsers including Mozilla and Opera.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

uknightuss

Frames and iFrames are not necessarily bad. They have their purpose when used correctly. UNFLUX has on a number of occasions supported them here and has done good work with them. The problem is too few people understand them enough to do a very good design with them. Hence they have gotten a bad rap. And, as you have already noted, they are not search engine friendly.

I side with the proponents of CSS
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Post 3+ Months Ago

If anyone is interested, iFrames are in the HTML 4.01 spec...

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/frames.html#h-16.5

There is also further information at W3C about embedding documents

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objec ... -documents
  • Mas Sehguh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The only time frames are not bad is when an individual frameset / containing page is made for every frame combination possible. This pretty much negates most of frames' slight advantages.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It's not exactly bad but you do put your website at a disadvantage when it comes to Search Engine Optimisation.

There are many great menu ideas which are better than using frames - which is really the only reason why most people use them.
  • Mas Sehguh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

No, they are bad (unless you have a new frameset for each page), because links to individual files within the frame are impossible while keeping a frameset, and that literally breaks the World Wide Web.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Sam Hughes wrote:
No, they are bad (unless you have a new frameset for each page), because links to individual files within the frame are impossible while keeping a frameset, and that literally breaks the World Wide Web.


I have to agree with this. That's why I quit using them around four years or so ago. I don't know that the word bad is the operative word. I think impracticle might be better.
  • joebert
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I've found iframes usefull lately for file uploads with Flash, it beats wondering about popup blockers & allows me to keep the interface feel rather than that of a normal submit the whole page upload.
  • uknightuss
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Wow! I got a lot of responses with this question :D


Well it looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of CSS cramming in the very near future.. From all that I've read on the web and all the replies posted here, I would say it seems like the most logical choice.

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone and links to references that were given. If anyone else has good links on CSS that they could share, that would be super cool!

Maybe after I have figured some things out in CSS I can re-do my personal website. (which is incomplete anyways..)
  • ctompkins
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Post 3+ Months Ago

"The problem is too few people understand them enough to do a very good design with them."


This is probably the most intelligent thing I've heard about IFrames on the net (THE WHOLE NET). It's the root of the problem put into proper words! IFrames aren't bad. They only appear to be bad when used improperly. Oh, and that's a good use of IFrames with Flash by the way, good idea.
  • rottenberry
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Post 3+ Months Ago

how does css replace the use of frames?
  • Digitelle
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Post 3+ Months Ago

joebert wrote:
I've found iframes usefull lately for file uploads with Flash, it beats wondering about popup blockers & allows me to keep the interface feel rather than that of a normal submit the whole page upload.


Jobert, could you elaborate on this a bit, I have always simply embedded flash into my html files with a <embed src=""></embed> tag but I am very interested in understanding how iframes could help me serve flash better. (just got me a new jobby job)
  • joebert
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Best example I can give right now is part of a current project.
The end result of this project is to provide an online storage & interface to stash/manage everything from ringtones to Java applications for mobile phones, the example comes from the PC side of the project.
While I can cover every aspect of management from a single Flash interface I ran into the problem of keeping client session state without wasting bandwidth to resend all of the details of a users filespace. (queried & loaded via XML on initial load of the movie) when uploading new files.

I could use a new window to get the same results this gives but creating an iframe dynamically with the src set to my upload form makes for a friendlier interface.

The CSS,
Code: [ Select ]
body{background:URL("imgs/lineBG.gif"); margin:0px;}
div#upload{position:absolute; top:60px; left:50%; width:340px; height:490px; visibility:hidden;}
td#left{background:URL("imgs/lineEdgeL.gif"); height:100%; width:20px;}
td#right{background:URL("imgs/lineEdgeR.gif"); height:100%; width:20px;}
  1. body{background:URL("imgs/lineBG.gif"); margin:0px;}
  2. div#upload{position:absolute; top:60px; left:50%; width:340px; height:490px; visibility:hidden;}
  3. td#left{background:URL("imgs/lineEdgeL.gif"); height:100%; width:20px;}
  4. td#right{background:URL("imgs/lineEdgeR.gif"); height:100%; width:20px;}


The Javascript, (Flashs IE VBscript hook excluded)
Code: [ Select ]
var InternetExplorer = navigator.appName.indexOf("Microsoft") != -1;
// Handle all the the FSCommand messages in a Flash movie
function default_DoFSCommand(command, args) {
 var defaultObj = document.getElementById("default");
 if(command == "showUpload"){
    //var myArgs = args.split("|");
    document.getElementById("upload").innerHTML = "<iframe id='uploadFrame' frameborder='0' style='width:100%; height:100%;' src='uploadForm.cfm?sid="+args+"'></iframe>";
    document.getElementById("upload").style.visibility = "visible";
 }else if(command == "hideUpload"){
    document.getElementById("upload").innerHTML = "";
    document.getElementById("upload").style.visibility = "hidden";
 }
  1. var InternetExplorer = navigator.appName.indexOf("Microsoft") != -1;
  2. // Handle all the the FSCommand messages in a Flash movie
  3. function default_DoFSCommand(command, args) {
  4.  var defaultObj = document.getElementById("default");
  5.  if(command == "showUpload"){
  6.     //var myArgs = args.split("|");
  7.     document.getElementById("upload").innerHTML = "<iframe id='uploadFrame' frameborder='0' style='width:100%; height:100%;' src='uploadForm.cfm?sid="+args+"'></iframe>";
  8.     document.getElementById("upload").style.visibility = "visible";
  9.  }else if(command == "hideUpload"){
  10.     document.getElementById("upload").innerHTML = "";
  11.     document.getElementById("upload").style.visibility = "hidden";
  12.  }


The HTML,
Code: [ Select ]
<div align="center">
    <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr>
    <td id="left"></td>
    <td id="flash">
        <OBJECT classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0" ID="default" WIDTH="700" HEIGHT="600" ALIGN="">
            <PARAM NAME=movie VALUE="default.swf">
            <PARAM NAME=menu VALUE=false>
            <PARAM NAME=quality VALUE=best>
            <PARAM NAME=wmode VALUE=opaque>
            <PARAM NAME=devicefont VALUE=true>
            <PARAM NAME=bgcolor VALUE=#FFFFFF>
            <EMBED src="default.swf" menu=false quality=best wmode=opaque devicefont=true bgcolor=#FFFFFF WIDTH="700" HEIGHT="600" swLiveConnect=true ID="default" NAME="default" ALIGN="" TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash" PLUGINSPAGE="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></EMBED>
        </OBJECT>
    </td>
    <td id="right"></td>
    </tr></table>
</div>
<div id="upload"></div>
  1. <div align="center">
  2.     <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr>
  3.     <td id="left"></td>
  4.     <td id="flash">
  5.         <OBJECT classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0" ID="default" WIDTH="700" HEIGHT="600" ALIGN="">
  6.             <PARAM NAME=movie VALUE="default.swf">
  7.             <PARAM NAME=menu VALUE=false>
  8.             <PARAM NAME=quality VALUE=best>
  9.             <PARAM NAME=wmode VALUE=opaque>
  10.             <PARAM NAME=devicefont VALUE=true>
  11.             <PARAM NAME=bgcolor VALUE=#FFFFFF>
  12.             <EMBED src="default.swf" menu=false quality=best wmode=opaque devicefont=true bgcolor=#FFFFFF WIDTH="700" HEIGHT="600" swLiveConnect=true ID="default" NAME="default" ALIGN="" TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash" PLUGINSPAGE="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></EMBED>
  13.         </OBJECT>
  14.     </td>
  15.     <td id="right"></td>
  16.     </tr></table>
  17. </div>
  18. <div id="upload"></div>


Notice the "opaque" state of the swf & the emptiness of the div tag that will contain the iframe ?
My iframe has no border, it will hover above the centered swf positioned absolute at top:60px; left:50%; which will allow me to blend it in with the flash interface rather than open a new window.

If flash "fscommand" will be used from buttons to trigger javascript that writes the iframe to the page, when the iframes form is submitted the server saves the files, adds them to the database but instead of having flash reload the entire updated details later, the form submit also writes theese new details to a temporary area of that persons database entry & sends back the upload form with confirmation details on it this time.

When the user is done uploading files they press a gallery button which will trigger flash to load only the new details set aside in the database earlier (then delete them from the db) & append them to the existing details in Flash.
In this particular project watching filesize & other such restrictions between uploads wasn't needed, it's not like you need anything more than the confirmation page between uploads anyway..

Now if only everyone had Flash enabled phones, my life would be sooo much easier :lol:

(no I can't show a link to this yet.)
  • Digitelle
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Post 3+ Months Ago

thanks, you are riding the crest of this technology wave I see. i will have to return to this post at a later date, when I am working on this flash site and see if I can use any of your methods

thanks again

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