Frames vs No Frames

  • Sonire
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I am looking to make a site with out frames, but I already have a huge site with frames. My goal is to have an entrance page where you can choose between frames and no frames. What is the quickest way for me to do this?
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Post 3+ Months Ago

  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The quickest way is...

Delete all of your pages that have frames and start from scratch building your NEW IMPROVED website without.

If you don't, you'll have two SEPARATE homepages to manage which will pan out to be a major pain in the ( | )

Don't use frames. They're bad.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

ya frames are evil :evil: . I learned today that tables are pretty evil too. Leave the darkside forever :)

Seriously, you seem to be planning on doing a no frames site anyway, you might as well ditch the frames one once you are done. It would be a pain and a chore to maintain both, unless you worked out a clever server-side scripting thing that gets both sets of data from the same source (and isn't really worth the effort)

Plus a lot of people would not know what the difference is when they first see " frames or no frames"

Plus it means people have to make an extra click to get in. People are extremely lazy.


To actually answer your question, I'm not sure what the quickest way to produce two sites is. possibly copy then paste lots of times :)

The quickest/easiest way to maintain two sites is to write a two serverside scripts that will both take data from the same source but output in different ways. Therefore, update source = update both sets of pages.

I still say ditch the frames though.
  • Tom the Great
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You can do it like Leo Laportes page: http://leoville.com/ how you can select frames/no frames (maybe just make an intro page with the selection choice.) But the main idea is just to have the same web pages, just with frames it has the side frame.
That idea won't work if with no frames you want a side bar....

Anyones, I agree with the other guys, frames are evil and 99% of the time they are done bad, and make the site look horrid.
  • ogames
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Post 3+ Months Ago

yup, frames suck, i used em for about a day and though... why the **** did i use frames... i should have shot myself there and then... :)
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Before UNFLUX says anything, allow me to give you two of his site designs that use frames effectively:

http://www.cloud9studios.com
http://www.evanstylez.com

You can read his actual comments about them here:

http://www.ozzu.com/website-design-forum/why-don-you-like-frames-iframes-t1711.html
http://www.ozzu.com/general-discussion/frames-iframes-t1536.html

Here also is a page from another designer friend of mine:
http://westportleasing.com/

She took some tremendous time to do the frames so they were seemless. Although it's not the most visually appealing site most of us have seen, if you didn't look at the source, you'd be hard pressed to tell it was frames. And her job isn't even to design web pages. She did a respecatble job because she made some effort.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Sonire

To answer your question, right now your pages are already built. To make your "non-frame" pages quickly and easily, you just need to add a navigation to them and rename the pages so they don't overlap any of the framed page names.
  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The thing about frames is that if you get to a page through a search engine, you're stuck.

Cloud 9 is a great looking website and frames have been used very effectively. However, what would happen if I came to the following page through a search engine?

http://www.cloud9studios.com/contact.htm

I'd be stuck.
  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote from Bigwebmaster
Quote:
As far as frames and iframes, for the most part I do not like them because they aren't the greatest thing for search engines, and you can still pull off the same effect with CSS, tables, and layers (in most cases). Usually I see people using frames because it is the easy way out.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

gsv2com wrote:
The thing about frames is that if you get to a page through a search engine, you're stuck.

Cloud 9 is a great looking website and frames have been used very effectively. However, what would happen if I came to the following page through a search engine?

http://www.cloud9studios.com/contact.htm

I'd be stuck.


you can write a jscript that (I assume) checks to see if the window is contained within a frame, and if it is not, redirect the user to the frame - if that makes sence. That way, when you link to a page that should be within the frame, you can redirect to a framed version. I've seen this done and the script shouldn't be too hard (you can probably find it for free if you try.

Hmmmmmm.......
maybe you could have a jscript that detects if the window is within a frame or not, if it ISN'T then make some navigation at the top. If it IS inside a frame, don't create the navigation as this will be on the frames page.

This way you should be able to have a single page for each of the content pages. What do you think peoples?


Another reason why not to use frames is bookmarking. I am making the assumption that the site is an informational site. If a user wants to bookmark a frames page, then this tends to go all screwwy.
  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Another idea is just to avoid using frames altogether! :) Then there's no need for a JavaScript hack. I'm sure there are workarounds for just about anything, but it just makes more sense to me to do things without frames since you can make your page mimic frames simply by using css.

Then, you've got no search engine problems, no bookmarking problems, no display problems, etc. The list goes on. And best yet! No need to create and maintain a frames and no-frames version of the exact same website!

And by the way: you MUST listen to every word I say now that OZZU has upped my status from Graduate to Expert! Wohoo! :P
  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

rtm, by the way, cool signature. Nice quote!
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Post 3+ Months Ago

ATNO/TW wrote:
Here also is a page from another designer friend of mine:
http://westportleasing.com/

She took some tremendous time to do the frames so they were seemless. Although it's not the most visually appealing site most of us have seen, if you didn't look at the source, you'd be hard pressed to tell it was frames. And her job isn't even to design web pages. She did a respecatble job because she made some effort.


It looks like a typical frames website to me. Being that she's not into web design, she did a good job. But I wouldn't use this as an example of the pros of frames.

Here's an example of horrible use of frames (and other bad things): http://www.militarysalesjapan.com.

I designed that site a long, long time ago and never got around to doing a redesign. One of these days I'm going to fix the site up better for the client, but he wanted things to look exactly like the official volvo website, so I was restricted to using frames due to client demands... But that was then. I think I might just take on an overhaul pretty soon.
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

A REFOCUS post:

This was the original question.

Sonire wrote:
I am looking to make a site with out frames, but I already have a huge site with frames. My goal is to have an entrance page where you can choose between frames and no frames. What is the quickest way for me to do this?


Note what Sonire said. He/she? didn't make the site with frames -- it already exists. I go back to what I said:

ATNO/TW wrote:
Sonire

To answer your question, right now your pages are already built. To make your "non-frame" pages quickly and easily, you just need to add a navigation to them and rename the pages so they don't overlap any of the framed page names.


Sonire doesn't need an alternative to frames. He has the solution to it -- he's just trying to find out a good way to give an "option" for users to make the choice between a framed site and a non-framed site. The key here is to read what his question was. Sure, I added a post to reply contrary to those who prefer not to have frames, and about 3 minutes later, also told Sonire how he could quickly change the original "framed" HTML files to work in an unframed page. Combine that with Tom the Great's answer, and you have the solution.
  • Uzzo
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Its also worth mentioning that frames arent good accessibility and should be avoided at all times according to the W3C (WorldWide Web Consortium).
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

DONT USE THEM ;-) it was kinda ok to offer the choice mid 90's but not now.

just stick to no frames you will be much better off.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I say no to frames. too many other options to not have to use them :)
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

SECOND REFOCUS POST.

HELLO!>?!???? Can't anyone read here? Sonire posted this:

Sonire wrote:
I am looking to make a site with out frames, but I already have a huge site with frames. My goal is to have an entrance page where you can choose between frames and no frames. What is the quickest way for me to do this?


The point is "I already have a huge site with frames" -- Sonire is asking for a way for visitors to make an easy choice for frames or against....not opinions on why frames are bad. Think about it. Sonire is asking for help on combning the two options and apparently intends to redesign a non-frames version of the site. If anyone has a better suggestion than Tom the Great (who obviously read the question) gave, speak now or forever hold your peace.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

well then just have an index page that says

Choose frames

or

No frames

and have a link to either section of the site.
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

yeah just take off the text that says "choose frames"

joke
  • gsv2com
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Post 3+ Months Ago

All of us read the topic, and most of us gave good advice. Giving "cheap-hack" advice is one thing. Yeah, it might answer the question, but it inadvertedly puts a stamp of approval on a poor practice.

If a 14 year old asked the question, "what's the best funnel for guzzling beer", you'd answer, "Don't guzzle beer! You're 14 years old for god-sake!" So, why is it any different if a 14 (or 16 or 18 or 21) year old kid asks what's the best way for users to choose frames or not. It's still a bad practice.

I really don't get what the big deal is of going off-topic. Relax! Yeah, it's a big deal to go way-the-heck off topic, but topics evolve, the answer has already been given, and the conversation has continued. What's the harm?

As far as the actual question is concerned, musik gave the only answer that was needed. "Choose frames or no frames." Bravo.

And another thing worth mentioning: the title of this thread is "frames vs. no frames". In my opinion, we have had a good discussion on just that.
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

OK...touche, gsv2com, to a point. Perhaps I'm looking at it from a different point of view. I'm thinking about what he said in the post. I'm asking myself, OK...I have a website I inherited that's "large" and is done in frames. I'm going to assume that I already have a bnch of visitors that have it bookmarked. I'm also thinking I remember I have an email account. Skip that -- I have about 15 different email accounts on three different hosts and one of them offers a choice of frames or not, wheras the other two are frames and I have no choice. Guess which option I choose with the third one. The frames option. Why? because I'm used to it and comfortable with it. Does that help make my point clear?

Those of you who know me, know I oppose frames. Personally I hate them, but I'm about to do a frame version of a site because I need to to make it work like it needs to. Frames aren't evil, but they are very difficult to do well. And on a normal basis I would be the first to agree to nix them.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, we are conversing amongst ourselves. Has anyone asked themselves why the originator of the post hasn't responded at all? I asked myself that question a couple times and thought perhaps it was because the replies in this post didn't provide the solution needed. That's why I took the route I did with my replies.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

ooo ooo i forgot to mention this too - if you go to this post
http://www.ozzu.com/website-design-forum/instead-frames-what-you-use-t19323.html
i mention how on a clients site i did away with the frames that were on there (at the time whats what they wanted) and eventually i created a menu which was easily updating in one single file which updates all pages. I had to do a little tweaking to get the menu in there (basically just a few breaks to fit it in)

anyhoo might be of some help as an option for something else to use if you so desire :)
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

if you are interested i can tell you how to turn that framed site into a non framed site fairly easily using dreamweaver ;-)

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