Voting Chart

Total votes : 114

Select below what you use most to write your html

  •  
    Notepad
  •  
    Wordpad
  •  
    Dreamweaver
  •  
    CuteHTML
  •  
    Frontpage
  •  
    BBEdit (Mac)

How do you produce your html?

  • Bigwebmaster
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Please choose one of the above. Just curious how you guys design your webpages, if its not on the poll above let me know and I will add it.
  • Borrow -A- Geek
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Post 3+ Months Ago

its a combination between dreamweaver and notepad, but dreamweaver has a mind of its own sometimes, and pisses me off to no end with tables! so i hasve to usually go into notepad and edit it manually to fix it...
  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I have to admit, that the majority of my work goes through Frontpage XP. There
isn't a damn thing wrong with it either.

People, coders mostly, complain that it clutters up the code, and makes for messy
web pages....I 100% disagree. Take a look at any of my web pages, and then
try to tell me that it's messy, or looks bad, or anything negative in terms of the
way it looks. You can't.

Dreamweaver is VERY NICE, especially MX. But as Guru said, I hate the way it
handles tables. Since I am a table-layer, using tables on tables on tables to
create my pages, I use Frontpage to start out, and get my boundries.

At some point in adding the content, I always go to DWMX and clean it up, and
finish it off there. I can code by hand...and make a lot of adjustments by hand in
notepad, but I personally see no point in sitting down and coding it all by hand,
especially when I feel my pages are far superior to a coders, in terms of
design.

Sorry, I didn't mean to post so much on this, but I had just had an argument with
a bunch of other webmasters about this, and they were proven wrong on every
point, even by vote from visitors in a poll.

Anyways...I use graphical editors, because I like to see what I'm making as I
make it, and then adjust from there. It's all a personal preference though...

/unflux
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  • Borrow -A- Geek
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Post 3+ Months Ago

can i change my vote to "no f***ing way!" haha j/k actually it was hard to ween myself off front page because as unflux said, it is a very user friendly interface. But the problem i have with front page is it is trying to be to damn smart for its own good. i put in some code with out using the insert html feature and bam it tries to make it proprietary microshaft crap. have you ever try removing the meta tags from front page only to discover it got put back in there?? ughh thats irritating.. haha or have you ever tried pasting code directly into the code area ony to find the FP converted it into html style like "%20%2e%2ecrap%2ecom" yet another very irritating feature...

oh and BTW when i told you i use notepad for alot of stuff its true, however i LOVE cute html as it has some really cool features like code coded code and line numbers as well as mass replace like if i have 20 identical documents or 20 docs with a snippet of code that is identical i just do a mass replace of all docs at once and BAM 1 hours work done in 2 seconds.. two thumbs up for cute html!

My 2 cents...
  • Bigwebmaster
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yeah I used CuteHTML the other day for a mass replace on unmelted. I had some code that animaged my jpeg image at the top (yes jpeg), but anyway it seemed to be eating a ton of cpu, maxing it out, on the version 6's if IE. It had never done that on the earlier versions, so I am unsure why. So anyway I had about 250 pages to go through and doing it one at a time would have been a pain. So I used CuteHTML and was able to edit all of them in a matter of seconds. The mass replace feature is very handy.
  • ED
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Post 3+ Months Ago

UNFLUX wrote:
People, coders mostly, complain that it clutters up the code, and makes for messy
web pages....I 100% disagree. Take a look at any of my web pages, and then
try to tell me that it's messy, or looks bad, or anything negative in terms of the
way it looks. You can't.


the way things LOOK... no problem.. code is real easy to read but what it does is create EXTRA code.
like leading spaces used for indenting. Those leading spaces take up bandwidth.
Also.. it always adds font tags everywhere when it doesn't have to.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I agree...and that's usually what I hear about it. However, with the systems
people have today, 56k or not, it's irrelevant to speed. The bandwidth point, I
never really thought about. But I have a hard time believing it's significant. The
font tag thing is annoying, but it's not worth losing my techniques and styles over.

If I ever paste code into frontpage, I paste into notepad first then recopy...just a
quick lil' work-around.

My 2 cents on cute html = crap. :P

I understand all these points, as I said before, but I can't justify my designs for
pure principle of 'clean code.' And neither can my clients. [cha-ching]

/unflux
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  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

it's what makes this biz so great!

1000000 ways to do the same thing. And none of them are necessarily the 'right'
way.

/unflux
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  • dreamer7
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hey i use notepad or if i want to make a quick page with only text and pictures on it ill use HotMetal pro if any of u have heard of that but the gaming site i made was done pretty much with notepad with a few added source code pieces from javascript sites cos im new to javascript it isnt spectacular but i like it as its my first proper site that ive put up
D7
ps http://www.tatsquad.com thats it
  • Steen
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Metapad

aka: notepad on steriods!
  • turdmonsterGIA
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use DW, and anyone that says thats the easy way out is stupid. Fast and easy, or long and tedious. :roll:
  • dreamer7
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Post 3+ Months Ago

long and tedious every time at least u learn something and know where ur going wrong in the code is it me or is there less and less raw coders out there these days?
d7
  • turdmonsterGIA
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Post 3+ Months Ago

dreamer7 wrote:
long and tedious every time at least u learn something and know where ur going wrong in the code is it me or is there less and less raw coders out there these days?
d7


I learned HTML through DW. I can code a site in notepad now because of DW but I dont see the use.
  • dreamer7
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i don't know i just have a thing with doing it with programs cos wen it comes to edit things u have to do it through the web editting program cos the source code looks dirty with all sorts of rubbish the program puts into it for no real reason wen u can just do it cleanly i don't know just personal choice i spose i know full well its a lot easier in dw but i never find the time to learn it lol at the moment im learning perl so html/xhtml is a distant memory lol
d7
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You guys are going to laugh at me, but I use BBEdit (Mac :) ) or notepad for most stuff...at my old job they used GoLive which I hate, and I (very) occasionally use Dreamweaver.
  • Bigwebmaster
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I added BBEdit (Mac) to the poll. Is BBEdit only for Mac's? or is it also available for the PC? I hav never heard of the program :wink:
  • guitrspaz
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Post 3+ Months Ago

As far as i know its for mac only...its similar to homesite...color-coded tags etc, built-in perl syntax/error editor, ftp, basically a hightech notepad.
  • Bigwebmaster
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Okay thanks, I think I will leave the (Mac) by it then so people realize its for the MAC :D
  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

are there any other popular Mac editors? if so, we should try to include
them I suppose. Although, we don't really have a lot of Mac users here I
believe. hmm...
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

personally i would avoid frontpage.

dreamweaver is much better, it will also clean up the frontpage code for you ;-) and its also better for site management and development.
  • Cae
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Post 3+ Months Ago

what dro1d said... frontpage is the devil... use dreamweaver... it doesnt matter which editor you use... it all ends up being HTML in the end... :)
  • VentsyV
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Just edit it in your favourite text editor.
  • Ifrit
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I don't even know why some webhosting services provide 'front page extensions', ain't it all html? ain't it all the same?
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I've been wondering that....

I think it must be some kind of external files that MS Frontpage uses? An extra money-spinner.

IE, people (dumb people, mostly) use frontpage to make their web pages. They then use extensions. This ties them into using Frontpage in the future. Then they have to get their site hosted with a host who has "frontpage extension support" (which I'm guessing requires a fee to go to microsoft).

Whether thats right or not, it's gotta be something to do with tying people to their products and/or making more money.

On topic: I would agree with ditching frontpage - it puts so much crap into your pages it's unbelieveable. Either use dreamweaver (or even a freeware editor - I believe there are some good free ones knocking about). However any generator will put loads of crap into the pages, so the best bet is to use a text editor if you know enough coding to get by.
  • Ifrit
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I think dreamweaver has a function to clear all of that crap.

And yeah i bet its another way to get people to believe that's a better hosting service because they support frontpage ;)
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Frontpage extensions, from a web server perspective, are basically advanced FTP protocols. They let the client-side application talk directly to the server so that the user doesn't have to know anything about FTP, or that sort of thing, but can upload and download their web files easily. Interdev uses them in more or less the same way as FrontPage does. FP extensions, on Windows, are terribly insecure, and whoever it was that ported them to Apache should be shot on sight.

If Frontpage is the Devil, then Dreamweaver is the Anti-Christ...

Just download EditPad or Textpad (by personal choice) or some other similiar text editor and learn the languages. You'll be better for it, and the Web will be too. WYSISYG applications are dumming down the Internet, since anyone that can use Word can put up crummy webpages these days...

It will take some time to clean up the FP mess, but it will be worth it in the long run.


.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

jlknauff wrote:
I don't think it's worth the time to hand code it. You should learn as much as you can so that you know what your doing, but just use DW.


You must be joking? I mean.. you ARE kidding right? OF COURSE you should learn to hand code it. Otherwise, it's like trying to be a painter without every learning how to use a paintbrush.

Beyond the fact that WYSYWIG tools can't always make things work how you want them, and the fact that they create messy, inefficient code that can cost GBs of bandwidth a year, especially for a traffiked site... not knowing how to actually code means there are a bunch of people out there calling themselves web developers, or even programmers, who don't know a lick about web developement or programming! They might be good graphic artists, but when it comes to "web developement" all they know how to do is slice and dice their PSD and upload it, in all its inefficient, bandwidth and HD space horror.

... you must have been kidding.... right? :?

.c
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Um, no...did it look like I was kidding? If you took the time to actually read my post it clearly said that they SHOULD learn to code, but there is no reason to hand code for the grunt work. Did I say WYSIWYG does everything? No. Hand coding is not efficient so you make your pages in a program like DW, then clean up and optimize any crap left behind.

Just in case there is any confusion this time I'M NOT KIDDING :wink:
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I disagree completely. You'll end up spending more time cleaning up and rewritting bad code than you would writting clean code. Trust me, I see it all the time with some of the developers I have working for me. The ones that know how to do it all by hand consistantly submit production quality work faster.
.c
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

//edit - scrapped the previous rant, as I found the code I posted below, which says so much more than my words ever could

<b>well written</b> html code consists of a few div tags, and some nested lists for links. Then add maybe 10 id's and your good to go. This does not take long to produce, we are talking a hour here, including planning.

You show me a dreamweaver site that runs more efficiently than what I can produce, and has good accessibility and devolves nicely onto portable devices, and I will eat my own socks :D


//edit, sorry but I couldn't resist.
Quote:
No. Hand coding is not efficient so you make your pages in a program like DW, then clean up and optimize any crap left behind.

I had a look at your source code and found this:

Code: [ Select ]
 <tr>
  <td height="105"></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>

  <td></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td height="12"></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>

  <td></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td height="10"></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>

  <td width="50"></td>
  <td width="7"></td>
  <td width="50"></td>
  <td width="8"></td>
  <td width="50"></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
  <td></td>
 </tr>

 <tr>
  1.  <tr>
  2.   <td height="105"></td>
  3.   <td></td>
  4.   <td></td>
  5.   <td></td>
  6.   <td></td>
  7.   <td></td>
  8.  </tr>
  9.  <tr>
  10.   <td height="12"></td>
  11.   <td></td>
  12.   <td></td>
  13.   <td></td>
  14.   <td></td>
  15.   <td></td>
  16.   <td></td>
  17.  </tr>
  18.  <tr>
  19.   <td height="10"></td>
  20.   <td></td>
  21.   <td></td>
  22.   <td></td>
  23.   <td width="50"></td>
  24.   <td width="7"></td>
  25.   <td width="50"></td>
  26.   <td width="8"></td>
  27.   <td width="50"></td>
  28.   <td></td>
  29.   <td></td>
  30.   <td></td>
  31.  </tr>
  32.  <tr>
Nice way to clean up the crap.

I think that just about wraps up the efficiency discussion :wink:
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

And this... =]
By the way, I'm tempted to try your challenge, JUST to see you eat your socks... eeew! :P Too bad it would be in vain...


Code: [ Select ]
 <tr>
  <td height="19">&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
  <td>&nbsp;</td>
 </tr>
  1.  <tr>
  2.   <td height="19">&nbsp;</td>
  3.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  4.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  5.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  6.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  7.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  8.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  9.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  10.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  11.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  12.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  13.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  14.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  15.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  16.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  17.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  18.   <td>&nbsp;</td>
  19.  </tr>
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

There are loads of them all over the place. 12k for that homepage with 1 k text. I could produce the same layout in 3-5k of html

Carnix wrote:
By the way, I'm tempted to try your challenge, JUST to see you eat your socks... eeew! :P Too bad I would be in vain...


Lol I used that line before, "prove it and I'll eat my socks". I wouldn't even mind the stinkiness (<i>my</i> socks smell beeeautiful), it's that wool on teeth thing, you know. Have you ever tried to pull gloves of with your teeth *shudders*

Needless to say, I only offer the sock eating when I'm damn sure the person opposing me cannot prove their point :lol:
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I don't remember saying mine was perfect yet did I?
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

BTW-your logo doesn't display on your site.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

No but your site is a <b>perfect</b> example of why WYSIWYGs are a bad thing. I was making a point with an example.

I'm sorry to say this, but IMHO your code is a disgrace. I'm not being nasty, it's just that I am a compulsive perfectionist and I would be <i>embarrassed</i> to have produced work that sloppy.

Look I'm not here to make enemies and we all have our opinions. I'm just voicing the opinon that if you take the correct approach to hand coding, you will do a hell of a lot better than a WYSIWYG will.

BTW, the challenge is still open :wink:

//edit, My logo? on my site? or are you talking to carnix. My site that you can access, atm consists of a picture of a monkey, which displays quite nicely for me.


//further edit: what was this thread about anyway? :? :lol:
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I still think that for most people, WYSIWYG is going to be more efficient (from a time standpoint) to produce. I do agree that it makes bloated files and if you can hand code more power to you. I know that I CAN'T go in and write a page in note pad in ANY reasonable amount of time. I have just recently got back into this after many years in another field to help out a friend so I am not really up to speed on it anymore. :oops:

If you can make a 12k file into a 3-5 k file I would love some pointers-I'm serious. I am trying to learn CSS to clean up my code. Soooooo why don't we all point this in a more positive direction as it is going the other way right now. :wink:
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

jlknauff wrote:
If you can make a 12k file into a 3-5 k file I would love some pointers-I'm serious. I am trying to learn CSS to clean up my code.


Well check the sig :wink: it's coming but it's a big job and I have not got the time right now. Today was supposed to be the deadline I set myself for launching. I'm just not happy with the stuff right now (perfectionist again).

Is that better as a positive direction :D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Much betta. Yes, I noticed-when do you plan to launch it? Do you have the same opinon of a program called Cascade DTP? It is for making CSS, I found it on W3C so I figured it would be good.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I wouldn't use any WYSIWYG for coding. I come from a programmnig background and I like to build stuff from the ground up. I wouldn't code it I didn't find it stimulating and (for want of a better word) challenging. I like to be in control of everything, so hand coding is for me.

I wouldn't use a wysiwyg for CSS because IMHO it's a case of selecting the most apropriate method to use for a given application. This is a qualitative thing and demands the intelligence that is lacking in any computer software.

Plus their own site doesn't display properly in Firefox :lol: never trust someone offering website design products if their own site is not spot-on :D Looking at their source, they have used position:absolute for everything. That is the most simple and basic CSS layout technique there is. It's perfectly valid for a lot of things, I love position:absolute, but it is very limited. Like I said, it's picking the best method for the job, and by the looks of it, thats where this program fails.

//edit: also try using text zoom on the page. Not good

I actually hand code in DW BTW - I like the pretty colors it uses, and it has a respectable spellcheck on it. Plus it came with Macro studio.
  • MSchienle
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Post 3+ Months Ago

UNFLUX wrote:
are there any other popular Mac editors? if so, we should try to include
them I suppose. Although, we don't really have a lot of Mac users here I
believe. hmm...

Add me to the short list of Mac users. Another popular editor for Macs is Alpha, though I haven't used it in several years. It was a definite competitor to BBEdit in the MacOS 9 days, but I haven't heard much about it since MacOS X hit the scene a few years ago.

How about adding vim and emacs for the UNIX geeks amongst us :-) I've added a bunch of commands to vim to make my life easier whenever I need to work directly on the server.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use macromedia coldfusion, good for html php and other web languages color coding.
  • theak
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I used to use Microsoft Developer Environment, but last week I de-Windowed my PC and I've switched to Bluefish (very popular in the Linux community).
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Dreamweaver for design, notepad for subtle corrections.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
The bandwidth point, I
never really thought about. But I have a hard time believing it's significant.

Yes it is. Thats from a guy with 56K access. ;)

BTW I use something very close to Notepad. It is called ConText. It has highlights and line numbers, and tabs for each file. What else a coder needs ??
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Post 3+ Months Ago

EditPlus (built-in FTP client sold me on it)...

ConText is good... they use that on the UnrealScript VTMs on DVD2 of UT2K4 :)

Btw, didn't this thread disappear like over a year ago? ;)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Axe wrote:
Btw, didn't this thread disappear like over a year ago? ;)

Yup. I just found this forum a couple days ago and wanted to post a response before asking a question. It looked like a question I could handle :-)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

the two editors i most use are notepad , dreamweaver, and dev-php
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Of those I have tried word pad, note pad, and front page. I have to use front page for school. and I hate it, I have the problem with it adding alot of stuff I dont want. Wordpad/notpad is good, becuase you just type all the code yourself with no inerfernce like frontpage/dream weaver. But what I use is evrsoft first page Its my god of HTML. It is like notpad in the sence that it wont add anything extra, But it has everything color coded.(img=pink tables=gold java=red ect.) plus it has the preview option, so you just hit F5 and you can see the code, without saving then pulling up IE and refreshing likeI always did with note pad XD. Pluse it comes with almost 500 scripts and some auto tables if you want them. Overall its the best thing I have come across.

-Getting out the word Hacker007 [/url]
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

How do I produce HTML? well... a little water, some html seeds... maybe some miracle grow...

:)

I use TextPad exclusively for everything: ASP, PHP, HTML, JavaScript, C, Java. You can add macros to connect it to whatever compiler you want so that you can compile and see your results as easy as hitting CTRL-Shift-C or CTRL-Shift-J (those are the assignments I use, anyway...). I also created a bunch of macros that auto apply basic HTML tags (highlight something, ctrl-b, and now you have bold tags.. etc), some more advanced than other. The Regex-based search allows for pretty much unlimited macro-based manipulation. Oh, and unlike other programs (like DW), it opens in, like, 2 seconds... =]

Enjoy: http://www.textpad.com/
If you like it... register it, it's not very expensive.

.c
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

yeah that code is not the most efficient. In terms of efficiency hand coding is best, but not everyone can do it well (if at all), so wysiwyg is a good start. i started with wysiwyg with no intention of ever hand coding, and now i find myself in code view in dreamweaver writing half of it my self. i use both techniques to their full advantage, and any code that doesnt need to be there i get rid off. simple as that.

metaphor: coding is basically learning a new language, so you cant expect someone learning to put together full sentences/coversations etc properly (efficiently). gotta start with small words and work your way up ;-)
  • Miss_Bee
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Dreamweaver rocks
  • jerryscs
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Post 3+ Months Ago

When I am doing some coding on a Windows box, I usually use UltraEdit for HTML, Perl and PHP. When I am on a Linux box then I use KWrite. I also use DreamWeaver on both Windows and Linux every once and a while.

Jerry
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I find it really hard not to hard code things...
it never comes out looking quite right
and I love the way MD is done. I use it for just about everything (in the code view)
  • SharkShark
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I voted for dreamweaver because I CoffeeCup HTML editor wasnt listed. I been using CoffeeCup software since I started years ago and I figure why stop a good thing :P. I have Dreamweaver MX, but use it rarely. And If i am doing some quick work or editing. I use notepad.
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

There's a Dreamweaver for Linux?

"The horror. The horror."

.c
  • Sohaib
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Why so less votes for Frontpage ?????????
I thought it was the best one, well for me yeah.
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

sohaibG wrote:
Why so less votes for Frontpage ?????????
I thought it was the best one, well for me yeah.


you're kidding... right?

.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I like Frontpage it works pretty good for me, if you know something alot better than Frontpage. Please Advise me I'll see if i can jump to something else...
And uhh hmm... yeah it will rain on Saturday
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Do your code by hand. There isn't a more efficient way out there, and when it comes to programming, efficient == better

The best explaination I can think of us the theory of Occam's Razor:

William of Occam wrote:
"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything"


Frontpage, and every other WYSIWYG tool violates this logical precept in every way, and is therefore a less effective tool.
.c


*EDIT: Here's a good, detailed explaination of Occam's Razor, if anyone's interested...
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html
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Post 3+ Months Ago

to create tables, add several images, forms and more, which involve quite a bit of key pressing and repetitive finger gymnastics, i use dreamweaver.

to edit minor jiffs and to code as little php as i know, notepad is my dish of peanuts.

but mostly dreamweaver, like 80% of the time, sometimes i even use it to do nothing, as i sometimes forget what i was gonna do with it and close it right away, im nutty like that.

voted: no peanuts, so dreamweaver.
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i dont use any of them, i dictate the code to my secretary who then enters it into dreamweaver ;-) haha jokes.

like someone said, there is no right or wrong way, some ways are more effective than others, some produce "better" code, other offer a visual interface, etc. depends on whos editing, some people need to visualise it others dont. really depends on what is important in the final product - speed, efficiency, design, style, functionality etc. i dont believe its the tool, but how you use it. I think frontpage sucks ass in many ways compared to dreamweaver, but im sure theres people that could create a better site than me in many ways, using front page.
  • SharkShark
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Post 3+ Months Ago

DR01D wrote:
like someone said, there is no right or wrong way, some ways are more effective than others, some produce "better" code, other offer a visual interface, etc. depends on whos editing, some people need to visualise it others dont.


Well said :D!
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yes, Dreamweaver works in Linux....you have to run it through Crossover or Wine, but it works pretty good.

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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use NotePad, DreamWeaver and CoffeeCupHTML Editor.
  • PluTunium
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Notepad and photoshop. Well.. I use photoshop to slice my websites.
  • s15199d
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Post 3+ Months Ago

In a professional setting I use Microsoft Development Invironment "InterDev" It allows me to develop clean code eficiently

At home...I use DW...I like the WYSIWYG...<u>BUT</u> after I have it built...I go in and clean the code up in code view. I guess I just get tired of developing in code view all the time and WYSIWYG is a nice break occasionally!
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

DR01D wrote:
i dont use any of them, i dictate the code to my secretary who then enters it into dreamweaver ;-) haha jokes.


*tries to imagine dictating code* damn that would be hard :?

As I haven't answered this yet, Dreamweaver. In CODE ONLY mode. Why dreamweaver if I don't use the wysiwyg?<ol><li>It came with studio MX</li><li>It turns the code pretty colours</li><li>It turns the CSS !important rule bright red (so I can see where my IE browser-sniffing hacks are)</li><li>It has a four character tab, not an 8 char one (which bugs the hell out of me)</li><li>The split screen is handy for writing blocks of text (no text wrapping in code mode) whilst still putting in b, i, a, pre & blockquote tags etc in the code</li></ol>

To be honest if someone sat me in front of a wysiwyg I wouldn't know how to use it anyway!!
  • OriginNO
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Dreamweaver, Adobe ImageReady, and the ol' faithfull Note Pad. It all depends on time, project, and the kind of day i am having. Like some one said "...blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, more effecient than others."
  • panreach
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Post 3+ Months Ago

don't get me wrong, learning in notepad or textpad is the ideal. However, once you've been doing it for a few years adding spice to your daily life with colors from Dreamweaver, Zend, or VIM Inhanced definately adds to the experience.
  • rjstephens
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Post 3+ Months Ago

BigWeb why is there not an "Other" in that poll? I use Bluefish.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

*yay yay yay*

I use FrontPage2003 and I'm proud. :D

Some of you have said people who use FP are "dumb". Well to that I say :P "pffffffffffft"

Never had a complaint yet on a website I've made with it and never had a problem I couldn't work out.

So it has a few minor annoyances, I'm sure FP users will get over it, its getting better with each new edition.

You see the beauty of having so many different programs to edit HTML with is that there are different kinds to suit ... yep you guessed it... DIFFERENT PEOPLE...

It's like saying Dreamweaver is the English Language of all the languages in the world, its the only one anyone should ever use because its the most popular.

:P "pfffffft" to that ;)

So *yay* for FP and booyah to those who think FP users are "dumb"
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

the users aren't dumb, just the app :P

Anyway, the baseline is HTML, not any particular application. In truth, my REAL complaint about WYS tools isn't really the poor and/or inefficient code they spit out, but really, it's the dumbing down effect they have on the developer community. I've been at this a a little over 10 years now, not as long as some, but longer than many. I remember when HTML WYSIWYG tools were nothing but a tingle in Adobe's pants (as I recall, the first "good" one was PageMill from Adobe... but there were certianly others before that... FrontPage came out sometime later though I think).

Anyway, back then, to make websites, people had to actually learn HTML and FTP and JavaScript (for what it was worth back then). By the end of the 90s, though, I'd see kids come in, bang out a website that look good, and worked ok from the perspective of someone who didn't know any better (AKA: The client), but never once have to type a single HTML tag or open an FTP client. It was all built into the WYS tool, be it DW or FP (those were the ones I saw people using in my experience)

These kids could drive PhotoShop, which is a skill I do respect, because I'm only marginal at graphic design, but they didn't know a lick about web developement best practices because they only know what the DW or FP tutotials told them, which is far from best practices.

Now, to tie this back to musik's comment, if someone is versed in HTML and knows how to optimize code for better performance, and understands the difference between web-ready photos and high-res graphics (etc... name you best practice and add it to the list), but still nevertheless uses FP or DW or any other WYS tool, then fine. More power to them.

I find it sad, though, that as doing the work becomes easier, the arcane knowledge of what's happening starts to get lost... I have a similiar gripe about Macs... When the functional parts of a system are not exposed, and have no reason to be, people tend to forget how those functional parts work, or that they are even there... That's my issue with WSYIWYG...

.c
  • s15199d
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
No. Hand coding is not efficient so you make your pages in a program like DW, then clean up and optimize any crap left behind.


bout the least intelligent post I've ever scene.

as far as those of you who claim DW makes clean HTML
Quote:
dreamweaver is much better, it will also clean up the frontpage code for you

ummmm then what do you use to clean up DW

It all boils down to using a text editor in the end. If your goal is clean concise neatly arranged code. Build it yourself using a text editor. You'll never have anything to complain about...b/c what's in the code, is precisely what you wanted...nothing more nothing less.
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

s15199d wrote:
Build it yourself using a text editor. You'll never have anything to complain about...b/c what's in the code, is precisely what you wanted...nothing more nothing less.

Exactly. Basically, it all comes down to plain text that you can type with a keyboard. Hand coding allows neatness, control and above all else <b>creativity</b>

YES ladies and gentlemen, coding/programming <b>is a creative field</b>. Not creative like drawing a picture, but creative in the same way as mathematics or science. It requires thought and intellegence, it's problem solving at it's purest. If you can't think creatively - you can't problem solve.

Now obviously if you think that the machine sitting in front of you is a better "thinker" or more intellegent than you, then hand over control to that. Turn like a cog through the same motions every time you build your code, and become an automoton like the machine you so admire.

Artificial intellegence is the worst thing we could invent, because it will finally let people stop thinking all together. You think it wouldn't happen? Many people try their hardest to never do any thinking for themselves. How many kids leave school able to do mental arithmatic at any decent speed? Compare that to 30/40 years ago. How many people base their opinions on the popular media? On the day people do stop thinking due to AI, I will happilly say let the machines take over, wipe us out as the waste of space we will have become.


Anyhoo, that little rant over and also on a lighter note, Carnix's post inspired me to write the:

<center>How to become a professional website desingner 101</center>

<ol><li>Draw a beautiful picture in [insert your favorite photoshop-a-like here]. Choose the "export to html" (or whatever it might be called) to slice the file for you, because we all know how difficult slicing is.</li>
<li>open [insert wysiwyg editor here]. Add some superfluous nested tables (gotta bump up that filesize somehow - no-ones gonna believe you are pro unless you can fill an entire floppy with one page). Type some words. Click some buttons to do tweaking.</li>
<li>Navigate to dynamicdrive and get a plug-and-play javaScript that does some fantabulously dynamical something.</li>
<li>Install some random plug-and-play php scripts (quote o' the day, news, blog, random images, gallery, whatever). Get as many of these as possible so you can claim to have a backend</li></ol>

Congratulations! Now you are a bona fide website designer AND developer, please feel free to print of your spangly certificate that will be your proof of your skillz (print is the button with the printer on)

Code: [ Select ]


      |------------------------------------------------|
      |      This is to certify that       |
      |      _________________________      |
      |                        |
      |       Has completed the         |
      |      PRO WEB DEV 101 Course       |
      |    and has show competance in all of    |
      |        DRAG & DROP           |
      |        COPY & PASTE          |
      |        POINT & CLICK          |
      |------------------------------------------------|
  1.       |------------------------------------------------|
  2.       |      This is to certify that       |
  3.       |      _________________________      |
  4.       |                        |
  5.       |       Has completed the         |
  6.       |      PRO WEB DEV 101 Course       |
  7.       |    and has show competance in all of    |
  8.       |        DRAG & DROP           |
  9.       |        COPY & PASTE          |
  10.       |        POINT & CLICK          |
  11.       |------------------------------------------------|


Dumbing down? You betcha!


This is not aimed at anyone, I'm just saying, as carnix did, that the constant dumbing down of all things computerised makes the situation above a potential reality. If I did all of that above, would clients realise that I know nothing about the website? I don't think so. Would they complain? I doubt it. Does this therefore make it OK? Discuss :D
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
as far as those of you who claim DW makes clean HTML
Quote:
dreamweaver is much better, it will also clean up the frontpage code for you

ummmm then what do you use to clean up DW


IMO dw doesnt need much cleaning but - code view > do it yourself... (also helps to turn off dreamweavers code rewriting)

Quote:
It all boils down to using a text editor in the end. If your goal is clean concise neatly arranged code. Build it yourself using a text editor. You'll never have anything to complain about...b/c what's in the code, is precisely what you wanted...nothing more nothing less.


not really, some designer types have no intention of using a text editor to build their sites. these types dont really care how "clean" the code is, as long as it does its job.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i dont think its a dumbing down these things are in reality getting more complex in a lot of ways with their advanced intergration of different web design functions.
i could put anyone who knows how to use a computer in front of a program and no matter how simple it is to one person it wont always be simple to them.
i still see webdesign in any form as being an art. you could argue the point till the cows come home, relate it to the art world you could say those who do abstract are lazy to those who take the time and paint a realistic scene, and in the end its still an interpretation of the creator.
each program has its good and bad points and power to people who can sit down and make a whole fancy website in notepad, some of us just choose to use the aids of a ready made program ;)
peace.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

hehe its funny how coders always hastle designers about clean code, but you dont always see designers hastling coders about their crap design. ;-)
  • rtm223
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Post 3+ Months Ago

My designs may not be beautiful (far from it), but they don't voilate the basic principles of aesthetic design. Dreamweaver/Frontapge code <i>does</i> violate the most basic principles of program/coding design. Which is crapper now eh? :D

Cleanliness of code is <b>fundamental</b> to any design of code. As is modularity and self-annotation. These are the <b>very basics</b> that anyone who works with code should understand.

HTML is the medium upon which you design, if you call yourself a web(site) designer as opposed to a graphical designer. Is there any other field where a designer can have no understanding (again not aimed at anyone, but is possible) of the principles involved in the end product, and still claim to be skilled in that field.

clothing designer -> fabrics, pattern-making etc
furniture designer -> ergonomics, material properties
Architect -> foundations, general construction stuff,
Website designer -> coding, plus some other stuff, check out the "what does it take" post for my views on what a "website designer" needs to be.

All of the above need to understand aesthetic as well, but there is more to design than just looking pretty IMHO. Could a clothing designer get a job without any understanding of how to make clothes patterns? I doubt it. Where is the difference? Because I'm missing it completely.

This is why dumbing down is a bad thing, because some people are claiming to be what they are not. It is possible for someone to make the step from graphical designer to website designer without any knowledge of what they are doing, and this is not a good thing.

I just want to stress again that I'm not attacking designers in general.
  • musik
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LMFAO :lol: who looks at the bloody code when they go to a website anyhoo??? If the site works great and it looks great in all browsers, loads quick and does what its supposed who's gonna get pedantic over how the code was generated?
  • s15199d
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i think though musik that that's precisely RTM's point...

not to be puting words in his mouth...

BUT...

if you use proper coding techniques & standards you will end up w/ a

musik wrote:
site works great and it looks great in all browsers, loads quick and does what its supposed


however some less informed graphic designer gets ahold of WYSIWYG...and stuffs unwanted/unnecessary code into a jumbo file <u>slowing the page load down</u> screws up some script he/she got from hotscripts.com and well <u>it aint gonna work</u>

emphatically negating your afore mentioned quote

I like RTM am not here to agitate anyone. I'm just trying to make a point...that plainly WYSIWYG holds no candle to a well trained individual using a text editor.
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I have to agree with musik.

If it does what it should great and then if you are able to clean the code by all means do so. A lot of people learned how to work with the code by doing something in a WYSIWYG and seeing how changes. A lot of the people asking these questions (which prog. to use) probably don't have the time to sit down and learn how to hand code because an employer decided to drop the job of web developer (while keeping up with their other tasks) into their lap with little or no experience.

I'm all for having clean code, though my site is NOT currently an example. Actually, it is an example of why you should either hand code or clean up after. I had to use DW because I have been out of this field for several years and came back into it to help out a friend. It would have been unrealistic for me to get back up to speed to be able to hand code the site with everything that was going on with the company-I know that is the case with more than a few new web designers out there.

For the people who are "designers" (I'm one :lol: ) as opposed to being programmers-there is a lot of merit to what rtm223 & carnix posted (here and on other threads). Something to consider even if you ignore the rest (especially if you are using your site for business) - clean & efficient code will improve your search engine placement more than you can imagine.

As for s15199d, I think staring at code all day screwed up your eye sight. My post didn't say anything about DW producing clean code-it said it would clean up the FP code. The person who made the first post on this was clearly not a web designer by any stretch of the imagination and was looking for the easiest and fastest way to get the job done. Sitting down to learn to hand code instead of doing his regular job is not something that most people would have the luxury of doing.
  • jlknauff
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s15199d wrote:
I'm just trying to make a point...that plainly WYSIWYG holds no candle to a well trained individual using a text editor.


http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http% ... ecu.org%2F

Is this a good example? :lol:
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DR01D wrote:
hehe its funny how coders always hastle designers about clean code, but you dont always see designers hastling coders about their crap design. ;-)


That's because coder's don't preport to be designers, whereas because of WYS tools, designers can make themselves out as coders/developers when their not. Only a real developer can tell the difference, though even the internet commoners will notice differences, even if they don't realize the underlying cause (why does this page load so much slower than that one? Why does this nav menu lag as I scroll over it, and that one doesn't? for example...)

You might say so what, if no one knows the difference, then who cares!? Does that mean you're going to go by a peice of glass that looks like a diamond for your wife (or whoever) and tell her it's a diamond? No. Would you by a car for cheap that looks great, but has a 40 year old motor with dirt in the oil pan? No. Of course not.

I've said it many times on this board: Just because a think CAN be done, doesn't always mean it SHOULD be done. I don't do great design, but my business partner does, he's no programmer and doesn't really know much about website code optimization, but I do, so he builds the nice PSDs and does all the swanky flash stuff, then hands it off to me to make into the site. It works out, because the clients get very attractive sites that are also fully optimized and cross functional. We add that to our pitch, to make them understand that, while they could get design expertise from anyone, from us they'll also get not just industy standards (which has become DW or FP sadly), they get real best-practices development, for the same cost, in less time

.c
  • jlknauff
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Carnix, I think your arrangement is an example of the most effective way to develop. Some people can code in their sleep and some people can design (astheticly-sp?) with what looks like no effort. Usually, people are not excellent on both sides of this field. By bringing these people together you have a team that can produce some pretty outstanding work.
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

jlknauff wrote:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http% ... ecu.org%2F

Is this a good example? :lol:


I'm sure some folks on the coder side will disagree with me here... but... DTD valid code doesn't mean the same thing as optimized code. Just because an page doesn't validate, doesn't also mean it's not efficient HTML code.

"Valid" is a whole different beast. Browsers still don't parse HTML the same way from platform to platform, or even from browser to browser, so at this point, I've not yet gone the route of worrying about validation. I validate it by testing it in various browsers, then prioritize tweaks based on the browser that shows something funny, and what that error actually is (that is, the effect it's having on usability). IE, by far, has the highest priority, because 4 years of detailed stats show that around 90% of the 120,000 unique visitors that go to CARE's site are using IE, a little over 80% are IR5.5+, and 60% (of the 94% of total that are on Windows) are using XP machines. So, sorry Firefox/Linux/Mozilla/Mac folks, I fix IE on Windows errors LONG before I tweak it to work on RH9 Mozilla (actually, i don't bother fixing Linux only errors, since the only users that hit our site regularly on Linux are bots and spiders).

We're not talking about DTD validation here, we're talking about good coding practices, and despite what some might say, they really are not the same thing. (though, really, they should be... technical realities don't alway jive with theory, unfortunatly).

.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I quote your little validation algarythm and laugh histerically in your face...

Code: [ Select ]
"Line 69, column 17: there is no attribute "COLS"

<frameset cols="120,*">
"
  1. "Line 69, column 17: there is no attribute "COLS"
  2. <frameset cols="120,*">
  3. "


Do you mean to tell me I'm not supposed to assign "cols" in the frameset?

PS: Half the other stuff that this lil algarythm turned up as errors are stored in external pages that are included. So basically you're just proving the ineffectiveness of the whole validation process.
  • Truce
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Let me ask you all a few questions before we start here.......

--What is the purpose of the computer??? To make work harder, or easier?

Why do people use Word over notpad for word processing?
Why don't people use binary to write their JPG images?
Why don't we all just issue commands to our processors by hand?

I found one common denominator in all of the above. The alternative method is much harder than the way it is done.

I am sure there are people out there that can issue commands to their processors much more efficiently than windows, but why then does windows continue to be far more popular? Ease of use.

The same applies for WYSIWYG HTML Editors. It is easier to write a nice looking web page in Frontpage than in notepad. I personally hate it when people get pissed that they learned something the hard way and someone who learned it the quick way is just as good at creating the end product. Bill Gates learned the hard way, and their are many people out their that know more than he does, but they didn't have to work half as hard as he did. Does Gates get upset and want to yell and scream and try to prove that his way of learning is more efficient? NO!!! So why then....are you fighting the new way of learning web design? The industry is moving more towards graphics and looks than how neat one's code is. If you tried writing a 2000 page website without the help of a program then you would likely spend the rest of the next 5 years working on it. Do you think a site like http://www.tigerdirect.com would be as stupid as to try that? No....the products would be way out of date by the time the site is published.

Also, how fast is your internet connection? How fast was it 1 year ago? I will eat rtm223's socks if the avg. internet connection is the same speed as it was 1 year ago, You see, the internet is speeding up, as are people's computers. The need for highly efficient web pages isn't neccesary anymore unless you are on a budjet to the penny and can't afford hosting.

I understand why you "coders" are mad that you had to learn all of what you know to do web pages, and now people just pick up a book on frontpage. But instead of being old-fart-conservatives, get with the new age of things and accept that stuff changes. $1000 says you aren't using DOS only still Carnix......rtm223.....any other "coders". It is because something better is here....Windows....Linux.....Unix....Mac Os....etc. So why don't you all get over your wasted time, buy a copy of FP or DW, and start cranking web pages out the new way.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

just to note... the validator he used was the official W3C validator, accept no immitations. But, nevertheless, your point is still true. As much as people want to argue about standard this and standard that, the reality on the virtual-ground is, there is no standard. It's like talking about the government of Somalia... In theory, and even on paper, there is one, but in truth, no one pays attention, no one really cares. You can't sell a 100% standards compliant product if it only works right 60% of the time.

.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
Why do people use Word over notpad for word processing?
Why don't people use binary to write their JPG images?
Why don't we all just issue commands to our processors by hand?

I found one common denominator in all of the above. The alternative method is much harder than the way it is done.


Truce...you also missed another common denominator. That the quality doesn't suffer by allowing your computer to generate JPG's or Word Documents. Where as a WYSIWYG development tool for webpages irrefutably does generate crap HTML that does in fact affect the quality of your webpage.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

before I actually start, two things to get sorted out:

s15199d,
Quote:
Line 69, column 24: element "FRAMESET" undefined

That is the reason why cols is undefined. The site does not validate because it has no doctype. With no doctype the validator <b>assumes</b> html 4.01 <b>transitional</b>. Trasitional doctypes do not allow framesets, so of course you are not allowed to specify cols in the frameset element that <b>does not exist</b>. The validator is not effective if the page does not have a doctype. It is the doctype that the validator compares against. No doctype = no comparison = flawed results. This is not a mistake in the validation algorithm, the mistake is still with the code.

It's like trying to run a spell check without knowing the language you are checking - it's just not possible to do properly.

--------------------------
truce,
Quote:
The alternative method is much harder than the way it is done.
coding is not more difficult. It's also a damn site more interesting than pointing and clicking. Hell, if you wanted to do something dull and repetative whilst sitting at a terminal, why not just become a typist or a checkout attendant?
Quote:
So why don't you all get over your wasted time, buy a copy of FP or DW, and start cranking web pages out the new way.
Nope, I see 99% of wysiwyg pages are based on table designs, which are actually the old way. Out of date by how many years now? How about you start using the new and spangly tools that wysiwyg editors are too dumb to handle. The right tool for the right job? WYSIWYG fails here because it doesn't have the intellegence to <b>choose</b> an appropriate tool. You have. Intellegence is a gift, don't throw it away so lightly just because something is "easy".
Quote:
If you tried writing a 2000 page website without the help of a program then you would likely spend the rest of the next 5 years working on it

Nope, the arcane rituals of the coder include the secret trick which we have hidden from the mere mortals. It's called copy and paste :roll: . I don't think frontpage can write 2000 pages of content for me now can it? Anyhoo, efficient CSS based techniques mean I can redesign a entire 200000 page site, <b>without touching the html</b>. I can just edit one css file and the whole site changes. I'm sure, along with most of the world's website desingers, you are unaware of this, but your ignorance is not my problem.
Quote:
The industry is moving more towards graphics
How does this justify a wysisyg? You can hand code a webpage and still have beautiful graphics! The industry is also moving towards making websites accessible to people with disabilities and mobile devices. I would look into those two things if I were you, but as your site is still under construction I'm sure you will fix these design flaws before it is finished :wink:

-------------------
Now on to the actual point of this post, which is gonna annoy and/or bore a lot of people, but hey, I'm pissed off, and at least I haven't directly insulted anyone.
musik wrote:
LMFAO :lol: who looks at the bloody code when they go to a website anyhoo???

No they don't, but as carnix pointed out, a 7kB html doc will load quicker than it's 30kB wysywig counterpart. People do notice, just because they don't understand is no excuse to fob them off with shoddy workmanship. If the furniture designer i mentioned above had not taken ergonomics into account when designing my chair, there would be problems. I would not be able to analyse the ergonomics, because I am ignorant of the subtleties involved, but I <b>would notice</b> that the chair wasn't comfortable.

Example 2: I don't know the first thing about plumbing, but if the plumbing system in my house used 3 times as much pipework as necessary then it has been <b>badly designed</b>. A site which uses three times as much code as necessary has likewise been <b>badly designed</b>. A designer who designs badly? Well, I think that speaks for itself.

With the plumbing idea, I would be unaware of the difference in the performance of the waterworks. Does this then mean that the designer did a good job? No. Wasteful and inefficient design is bad design. Which comes back round to the fact that many graphic designers like to think of themselves as web designers, even though they don't understand the basics of the web. As I pointed out before, someone can can claim to be a web desinger without even knowing what a tag is :shock: How can you say this is not dumbing down?

The code on a webpage is more important than the images, because an image on a webpage does nothing without some code to back it up. Like it or not, website design deals with code and is the design of a code-centric system. How can anyone claim to be a profficient designer if they don't understand the fundamentals of what they are designing? How can they claim to design something they don't undersand or appreciate.

A web desinger and a graphical designer are <b>not the same thing</b>. I like to call a spade a spade. If someone does not understand the basics of designing html and css, then IMO they are not a fully competant website desinger. To say that quality of code doesn't matter is even more rediculous.

A website can exist without graphics, and will function perfectly well. A site without code? I'd like to see that.

----------------------
For those of you wondering why I speak so vehemently about this topic, here is the list of skills that I wrote, in reply to the topic "what does it take to be a good website desinger?":
rtm223 wrote:
Graphics
HTML / CSS
scripting (both sides)
SEO, marketing, writing copy
people skills
Understand accessibility.
(probably missed something - it's morning)

I don't think you need to be an expert in all of them (I doubt anyone is). But you need to pick your core, learn them well, and then have an good working knowledge of (and repect for) the rest of them.
// I think i should have added "intuitive UI design" and "browser/device compatibility" onto there also.

This is the ideal of website designer/developer that I aspire to. I'm currently trying to build an appreciation for all the ingrdients that go into a website. What really pisses me off is that some people can do exactly what I have described in my previous post, without any knowledge or thought, and claim to be a specialist. But thats not all.

People <i>in general</i> have little more than contempt for programmers. We are shunned, we are geeky, nerdy, socially inept (apparently :? ), and get slagged off at every possible opportunity by the general populous. I don't mind this. I know that my work as a programmer will rarely be appreciated overtly (I don't see you thanking the "coders" for building your WYSIWYGs for you :roll: ). I accept it as a fact of life. These people don't really understand, and they don't pretend to either.

But for someone who claims to be a "designer" of a code-centric system, who claims to understand this artform, for that person to say that efficiency and cleanliness is unimportant? Thats exactly like me telling you that picking complementary colours is unimportant. You casually undermine the basics of my discipline, disregarding them as a waste of time, simply because you do not understand them. This is simple xenophobia in my book.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I think programmers do an awesome job, however I personally prefer to use a program to design my pages. I respect that everyone will have their own ideas and its a great thing.

Peace, love and mung beans! :D

xxx
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Post 3+ Months Ago

dayum, where to start.

back onto the main point, is wysiwyg dumbing down? from a programmers perspective yes. and i agree on most of the points mentioned. but could it also be the fact that programmers spend years of their life learning to code and wysiwyg does it all for you??? (not as well i might ad ;-))

im not disagreeing that hand coding is not the best way, it is, but there are many ways to skin a cat and each has strengths and weaknesses.

i dont call people that use wysiwyg editors and dont know sqaut about the code, web designers. a web designer has the attributes that rtm mentioned and more. but what wysiwyg editor does do well is give people a non coding entry into web design/development and what they do from there is up to them.

i got into web from a print bg, started with wsysiwyg and now produce full css layouts and w3c compliant and accessible sites. (also hand code) i originally had no intention of doing any real coding but for me it was a progression. and i now make the most of both techniques.

i really dont like alot of stuff being produced by "newbies" on wysiwyg editors and there is so much crap on the web because of it. but like i have said it is a progression and as people get better and the tools get better the general state of the web should 'hopefully' get better ;-)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The topic continues.....

Good post rtm at the end of the last topic...

But you see, like whoever it was at the end also said, they don't like that newbies can do that knid of stuff without learning all the basics. I personally know HTML and CSS to some extent, but I would rather use frontpage and get my site looking good at the same time. I also do programming a lot so I know how much the end product means to the programmer even though people dont respect it.

As to the size issue of web pages, the difference between 7k and 30k nowadays is so minimal due to bandwith increases, that the extra time spent loading the 23k for every user added up each month wouldn't equal the time and effort you would put into making it 7k.

Also, WYSIWYG editors like frontpage allow you to edit code as well as design. In fact, if you or anyone else doesn't know, Frontpage allows you to do both at the same time. I know that you don't ever write entirely error/mistake free pages of any decent length. WYSIWYG editors like frontpage can help you align as well as format without guessing how many &nsbp's you will need and other things like that.

I admit that I haven't spent the most time in the world on my site, but I like it and I would rather spend time developing quality products.

The future will end up with more WYSIWYG designers than notepad coders. This is evident and as much as it might make the size of the web grow, it allows more people to be on the web. It also allows companies and people to make money by hosting and advertising...sich as geocities. Do you think that geocities would survive if they took off support for any form of WYSIWYG? What about angelfire? tripod? homestead? All of these companies use easy to build web pages as a way of attracting customers. Many small businesses create their own web pages and are able to market online thanks to WYSIWYG.

[fade]WYSIWYG is here to stay[/fade].

PS: To the question about "Does Word Create inefficient text files?" The answer is yes. You only play with the end product....when was the last time you broke down a word file? They contain information about fonts, colors, timestamps, borders, guidelines, page formatting, Version Info, save date, and more that you might not need. If you made it yourself by hand you might not use up so much space.....think about it.....same with any other program like that. Power Point, Flash....
  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

this topic has been done before, and is really old
and large actually. I'll have to find it and merge...
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thank you truce, I thought it came across like a pointless rant TBH.

I've thought a little more and have come up with a single sentence that sums up my problem with wysiwyg:
I don't like someone claiming to be a specialist without having any specialist knowledge

Using a declarative language, such as PROLOG (which is pretty cool BTW), you can create an "expert system" to diagnose illness. The system can be fed symptoms and will then report back what the most likely ailment is, and the appropriate medication.

I could use this system. I could feed in values and get back a diagnostic. Does this make me a doctor? It does not.

Now the people who use wysiwyg and then edit the code after, fair enough. But wysiwyg does not encourage this. The whole point of wysiwyg is that you don't need to know any code. It makes the process to be transparent and many people just will not edit the wysiwyg. After all, the primary reason for using wysisyg then editing is because it is the "easy" way. Using wysiwyg and not editing it is the "even easier" way. The absolutely easiest way is simply to get someone else to do it for you :wink: How far down the "easiness" road shall we go?

When I look at the code of a website desinged by an "experienced professional" and see this:
Code: [ Select ]
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(genuine example by the way).

It vexes me, this is clearly someone who has taken no effort to edit. The person in question said he had been in the business for 12 years. He knows the code because he started before the wysiwygs where invented, but the dumbing down encouraged by wysiwyg has stopped him from making any effort.

Tools <b>are</b> there to be used. I won't use a wysiwyg because <b>for me</b> it's like using training wheels on a bicycle. Easy but restrictive. Every time I write a line of code I thnik about what is the best way of acheiving this goal, which is the most appropriate tag for the situation. Which CSS styles will achieve the goal in the most stable way. and efficient way I do this in a matter of seconds - it's now instinctive. The problem with wysiwyg IMO is that it makes the decisions for me. But the computer cannot make a qualitative decision so it just uses the same tools over and over again. It's like every time you reach into a toolbox you pick out a club hammer, rather than the screwdriver or the hacksaw or... you get the idea. I like to be proud of the work I do, and wysiwyg would just make me embarrased, because I know I can do better.

It's good for beginners and the less code-minded amongst us. But if someone <b>just</b> uses wysiwyg and then calls themselves a pro? IMO They need a slapping. A good hard slapping. And probably a wedgy too (just cos it's funny).

Quote:
I admit that I haven't spent the most time in the world on my site, but I like it and I would rather spend time developing quality products.
I wasn't really attacking you, I was just making the point that although wysiwyg can produce nice-looking sites as well as hand-codeders can, there are areas that it glosses over. It may be able to get images onto the page it does not make the best decisions about HOW to get the images onto the page. The difference is too subtle for some people to understand, maybe you would if you were a blind person using a website :wink:

Plus wysiwyg is so damn confusing to spell :twisted:
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I said most of my piece on the other thread that recently went this direction...what I have to say now is... thanks truce for doing a poll...I'm deff. 100% hand code guy...other than that...I don't intend to flame anybody...b/c I realized this community is about helping other's not expressing superiority or inferiority of anyone or their methods.
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I hand code everything 100%. Why?

Smaller File Size - Generally, hand coded pages will be smaller in size which will save in bandwidth and loading time.

Clean Code - It's easier for me to go through and edit code that I made and commented instead of my computer.

Learn More - The more I code by hand, the more I learn about programming on the web. With WYSIWYG, you only learn about design issues, not about the interaction of the browser and web site, etc.

More Fun - Maybe it's just me, but I love seeing my code take form. I like to know that I did this without the help of anything (except WordPad).

More Professional - If somebody View Sources your page, and sees a bunch of worthless, unorganized code, they won't think of you as a professional.
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Untill trees cease to form anything other than a straight line, wysiwyg will only get better.

Anyone who neglects to add "at this point in time" to thier opinions on wysiwyg, in my opinion has forgotten the concept of computers in the first place.

Untill time ceases to exist, todays X will always be tomarrows Y/why in the solve for X equation.
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UNFLUX wrote:
this topic has been done before, and is really old
and large actually. I'll have to find it and merge...

as promised...
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i use dreamweaver but i hate it when i save it, it adds stuff like %&aDW£ in the middle of tables.

and i hand coded it!!!
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that doesnt happen too me O.o
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Post 3+ Months Ago

make an empty table, upload it and see.

Code: [ Select ]
<table width=100>
<td>
<tr>
</tr>
</td>
</table>
  1. <table width=100>
  2. <td>
  3. <tr>
  4. </tr>
  5. </td>
  6. </table>
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i just did, and its not saying anything other tehn waht you pasted
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I chose Frontpage, but only because that's how I learned the basics of HTML...by designing visually, and taking a good hard look at the HTML it spat out to figure out what code did what. I think that a WYSIWYG editor is a wonderful tool for beginners to learn on, as long as they don't continue to use it as a major crutch, refusing to actually look at the code and learn something.

I must admit, though, I do occasionally use it to quickly build tables (it's easier for me to do a few mouse clicks than to do all of the typing,) but I usually take the table code it generates and cut/paste it into notepad, where I actually finish it off. It's also useful for figuring out what's doing what when you view source on another page, looking for a specific snippet that you'd like to use.

As for WYSIWYG editors "dumbing down" the design process: yes, in a way, they do. But I think that this only serves to make web design into something that anyone can learn. Plus, it's pretty easy to tell those who actually learn from those who use it to throw something up there just because.
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Weird characters like that are usualy Charset conflicts. You are probably developing in DW using a different character set than either you are specifying in the page header, or that you have set in your browser (ISO-8859-1 versus UTF-8 for example). Some characters, many you don't even see, register differently from Charset to Charset, some are not recognized at all, in which case, they are replaced with garbled characters that the existing Charset's versions (based on the encoded character.. the result varies from platform to platform...)

You see this most often when text is pasted in from MS Word. Microsoft has it's own Office character set, so things like quotes and aposterphies are not always rendered correctly on websites (unless you're using IE with and have it set to auto-detect the charset encoding).

.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I believe 1stPage 2000 should have a place in this poll.
It's old but still the best for plain html, and it's freeware!
A new version is also in the final development stages.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use HTML-Kit, and also notepad
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Frontpage
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I use Perl Code Editor for most of my cleartext - be it Perl, PHP, HTML or any other text files, unless I just want to change something fast - then I open it in notepad. I use Topstyle for my css and Dreamweaver for Flash.

I refuse to use Frontpage because of the security issues with it, most hosts don't realize that with default permissions, one can simply snarf http://www.yourdomain.com/_vti_pvt/administrators.pwd or authors.pwd, covert the file and run crack on it to gain full access to the site it came from. Also, simply changing the permissions on _vti_pvt will cause the authenticatin system to fail because it can't read the auth file

There's my two cents
  • SpooF
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Dev-php or matrix Y2k

matrix Y2k is really nice because it has color coded text for many lango
HTML
PHP
CSS
VBScript
JavaScript
SQL
XML
  • JrzyCrim
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well, I've been neglecting my html/css studies for the past few weeks but when I am coding, I use HTML-Kit and sometimes Crimson Editor. I've mucked around with Top Style lite for CSS editing - it integrates nicely with html-kit - but haven't used it much.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Heya Guys,

Im pretty new with website designing and I was just curious on other peoples opinions on which program to use for web design...

I use Dreamweaver MX 2004, because I find its easy to use and easy to learn something that I dont know.

I tried MS Frontpage *shiver* for a while till I found out about Dreamweaver MX, and I find Dreamweaver MX alot more userfriendly.

Do many people still use Notepad ?

Cheers
  • Sumen
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use HTML-Kit
I used to use dreamweaver but I only really used the code view anyway.
A lot of people use notepad, if you end up editing code most of the time its nice to have something which is so quick to load.

I really do like HTML-Kit though :)
  • neksus
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm gonna be the first to bite and admit to using Notepad. Either that or the "edit" option through CuteFTP.
  • Lucas
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I also use Photoshop CS for my designs for buttons etc is that a good program to be using or is there better ?
  • meisam
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i use notepad most of the time, but sometimes i use frontpage and/or dreamweaver
  • ScienceOfSpock
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Ultraedit at home (Windows) and Kdevelop or vim at work (Suse Linux).
  • meman
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Post 3+ Months Ago

iv only been making sites for a couple of months and i thought using notepad was normal , now i use HTML kit after reading a post made by ATNO.

sometimes still use notepad, it makes me feel like a hardcore HTML coder :P
  • dojo
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Dreamwever in puttin together the "pieces" from the puzzle I make in Photoshop. When it comes to coding I use Crimson Editor. It's free and I like dogs (the icon is a doggy :))
  • davenewt
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Dreamweaver in Code view... at least it has syntax highlighting and code hints which are useful when learning how to write stuff like php :)

Notepad? You guys are nuts!

Mind you, if I was having to develop html outside of my job, I wouldn't be able to use an expensive app, and wouldn't require a full-featured one...

Horses for courses!

Cheers,
Dave 8)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

100% Notepad! You've got to live on the edge!
  • digitalMedia
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well, I haven't responded to a 'favourite editor' thread in a while. So, my absolute preference is Dreamweaver. I really like it's project management functions, built in validation funcitons, and a few other things. I don't use the WYSIWYG window for writing, but it is nice to take a quick look at what's going on. For instance, I've been working on a osCommerce site over the weekend, and finding one obscure PHP section is very easy in the WYSIWYG.

The other reason I like Dreamweaver, is that previously I use and editor call "Homesite". That product was bought by Macromedia and made into Dreamweaver.

Another site I'm working on currently is a SharePoint intranet, so I'm forced to use FrontPage for that because the have a *special* relationship, like a dysfunctional family of sorts.
  • AnarchY SI
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i like to use a combination of Dreamweaver and Notepad. unless i need to get the source of a page and i can't view it directly (b/c of a javascript prompt). then i use HTML Kit as its quite handy at retrieving source code. but usually when i'm using dreamweaver, i have a split view. but i have like.. 70% of it code, and 30 design so that i can write whatever code, click into design view and check my changes right now instead of having to load the page up in a browser.

as for image editing, i find photoshop the best to use for my needs, however i dont make many images for my websites. sometimes tho.. theres also paint shop pro that you could use, they have a free trial.. 30 or 60 days. not sure which one. http://www.jasc.com if you want to check that out.
  • Mas Sehguh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I usually use TextPad or Araneae for editing HTML on my computer, and Emacs when editing over SSH.
  • sycofi5h
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Post 3+ Months Ago

me i just use good old notepad if i have to like edit a page because it looks so clean and plain when you write i like that, i do also use editpad, because it can hold alot of pages inside the program so you dont have all these pages opne on you taskbar..

andi do use Abode Photoshop for images and buttons
-sycofi5h
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Zend PHP studio because it highlights the code and makes it a little easier on my eyes. If you're looking for a WYSIWYG editor though, in my opinion, Dreamweaver is the way to go and, stay away from frontpage.
  • Dubya
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use notepad, and I also started using HTML-Kit recently per recommendations from this site.
  • Tom the Great
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Post 3+ Months Ago

notepad++

Just got it a while ago, and it is pretty good, a lot like some of the editors that come with KDE, but since I am not in linux all the time, I use this program.
Also good for some other languages too, it's just notepad with tabs and syntax highlighing for a bunch of languages, and a few other features.
  • AnarchY SI
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Post 3+ Months Ago

yes... definitely stay away from frontpage. lol
  • liltman
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I mainly use photoshop for design and most the time i don't need much more code so i then go into dreamweaver or notepad depending on how i feel, i used to love working in notepad but then i wanted something easy on the eyes and faster which is what dreamweaver does for me,

i also recently got notepad 2 which also highlights certain areas of code which is pretty good, what's this HTML-Kit that i keep hearing about and is it any good, if so what does it do that is so good and where can i get it from?
  • Maedhros
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Post 3+ Months Ago

vim. Code highlighting, automatic indenting, and the fact that it's so quick to move around the file... what else would I need? :)
  • liltman
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Maedhros wrote:
vim. Code highlighting, automatic indenting, and the fact that it's so quick to move around the file... what else would I need? :)


wats vim?
  • Tom the Great
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Post 3+ Months Ago

liltman wrote:
Maedhros wrote:
vim. Code highlighting, automatic indenting, and the fact that it's so quick to move around the file... what else would I need? :)


wats vim?


It's Vi Improved. Vi is generally a *nix editor, and Vim would be the improved version of it. :wink:
http://www.vim.org/
to find more info, and downloads, it's cross-platform, but I have only used it on linux.
  • Corey
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Post 3+ Months Ago

AceHTML Pro 6 is a nice program to. It highlights all the code and suggests functions as you type. It checks your links for you and supports all the popular scripting languages out there, Javascript, php, perl, exc. It has tons of other features. (spell checking, code checking exc..) You can also get the free version, AceHTML 5 Freeware which is just as good. If you want, you can check it out here.
http://softwares.visicommedia.com/en/
  • Jaw
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Dreamweaver MX 2004 in combination with notepad.
Design view for the basic layout and code view for the nitty gritty and for alter style sheet info.

Notepad is needed whenever I have to doctor some cgi and perl scripts(because dreamweaver trashes perl scripts for whatever reason)

Adobe photoshop is great for original slicing of the interface and button creation. I've been using Flash, Illustrator, and Photoshop for about 90% of the fancy image work. :D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

use Edit Plus.
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

adobe golive & frontpage
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

and photoshop too sometimes (image ready)
  • Liquescence
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Haha. Notebad, baby. And a bit of Jasc PSP 8.
  • Sumen
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Post 3+ Months Ago

musik wrote:
adobe golive & frontpage


I have to say, I dont meet people who have real nice sites and use frontpage often :).
  • musik
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Post 3+ Months Ago

oh well maybe you are too judgemental, i think some of my sites look great :)
  • Tom the Great
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Sumen wrote:
musik wrote:
adobe golive & frontpage


I have to say, I dont meet people who have real nice sites and use frontpage often :).


It's not that bad, it comes with MS office, and it's easy to go back and forth between the code and the display (instead of having a browser open) and the basic WYSIWYG, with some other stuff including css stuff, etc.
  • Sovi3t
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Notepad is all you need, man.

And for gfx, Photoshop.

WYSIWYG editors suck.
  • Bobbo171
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Post 3+ Months Ago

For images i use photoshop
then i take it to notepad
then I paste my code to frontpage so i can preview it in IE and see what IE decided to mess up(becuase i hate to actually have to open IE)
  • Pixelghetto
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Coding; Dreamweaver MX 2004 & Notepad
Image creation and manipulation; Photoshop CS
Image slicing; Fireworks MX
Vector animation; Flash MX

I try and use industry standard software for everything, as it makes sense work wise. :)
  • Funny_Fuzz
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I sometimes use notepad depending on the file. But I mainly use Microsoft Frontpage. I only use the HTML Editor in frontpage, but i use the visual mode if I get lazy writing tables. It also has a sitemap planner which is very useful for me when i plan for my websites.
  • horkam
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use editplus for all my code and PSP 7.2 for grafix. I tried notepad, but it's just sooo much easier using an editor the colors the tags. I recently dowloaded HTML-kit and am going to try it out because of all the great plugins that are being made for it. We'll see how it goes.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use/helped develop a web-based content management system, it uses php/PostGRES to render clean HTML code but if im helping someone that doesnt have access to our apps ( I have no control over the pricing) I use notepad regardless of what prog was used to create the page. Its clean, efficient, and I never learned any WYSIWYG software. I did use dreamweaver a little bit but almost always in code view unless I was embedding flash, which was very rare at the time. I would recomend getting some books on HTML and CSS to startwith or at least if you are going to use a WYSIWYG getting some books OTHER than the manuall that came with the software. After you are comfortable with that I would recomend some books on PHP, Pearl, XML, SQL (either MySQL or PostSQL), maybe even a book on basic Linux . Im not a big fan of any java but thats just my opinion I think it has become a rather bloated and slow language.

I really like Fireworks for graphics, but if its actuall photographs Photoshop is the way to go. Fireworks seems to be a little more intuative for web ready graphics but Im not that familliar with the newest version of Photoshop so I cant really say that for sure. Anyway Ill quite for now.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

typhon wrote:
Pearl


:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :P

Please repeat this haiku after me:

In Perl lies no "a"
I won't write "Perl" in all-caps
It's P-e-r-l
  • Dubya
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Post 3+ Months Ago

no one really knows where the name perl came from. Some have invented acronyms for it, but I don't think it was originally meant as an acronym. Most likely was just some random name given to it. Anyways, my post is only to say that there is no universal way of saying it.
  • typhon
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Doh! and I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
I wont ever ever never ever use all caps
  • Mas Sehguh
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Well, I sure have successfully derailed the conversation? :D

Anybody here like jEdit?
  • typhon
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Like I said before I dont use many editing apps however when I was on my Mac I loved bbedit. it was way better than anything note pad has to offer and its not just for html, its also a great little word processor for when you actually need a hard copy of your text.
Im still not very familliar with the apps available for Winx heh 23 yrs of using a computer and this is the first Windows box Ive used on a regular basis. and as soon as possible Ill be getting my hands on another mac . (trying to restear the conv :)
  • Azoundria
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use notepad.

I did try others for a while but I am used to adding end tags so when it adds them for me its annoying. Since I cant seem to type very fast without watching the keyboard I end up with two closing tags.
  • Azoundria
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use notepad.

I did try others for a while but I am used to adding end tags so when it adds them for me its annoying. Since I cant seem to type very fast without watching the keyboard I end up with two closing tags.
  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Azoundria wrote:
I use notepad.

I did try others for a while but I am used to adding end tags so when it adds them for me its annoying. Since I cant seem to type very fast without watching the keyboard I end up with two closing tags.


If you were using HTML-kit or similar editors, you can disable that "autocomplete" in Options .
  • Azoundria
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Yep thx but its just also that notepad is on every computer and I work on my site on computers at school or the library sometimes.
  • RockmanTV
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Dreamweaver in code view. I love the entities/functions lists and the color coding. It makes it a lot easier to identify problems in your code. The design view is also kind of nice for immediate testing on how the site looks. If it's way off from what you want, you can almost be sure you have issues with your code. For graphic stuff I like to use Photoshop.

I've done stuff in notepad when I need quick changes, dreamweaver is a pretty big resource hog.
  • lobonar
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i use the crimson editor, really nice one this is. It knows the syntax of many languages and shows it almost directly when you make a mistake in your coding. I only use this on my personal localhost on my room, this one doesn't have a connection to the net. On the computer downstairs i just use notepad but i never make php things there or anything more difficult then html.

if you want the crimson editor go here
http://www.crimsoneditor.com/
  • Sharky
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i use notepad i found it hard getting used to dreamweaver so i stuck to notepad :D
  • lobonar
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i found 1 big disadvantage of notepad, it doesn't show lines and if you make a javascript with for example 120 lines you get crazy if you get an error on line 87, then you have to count them all. If you use a notepad kind of programm with line numbres you can find it a dozen times faster
  • Azoundria
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Notepad does not show lines but it has a command to go to a line number. Edit>Goto then type the line number and it will move the cursor to that line. You dont have to count them all.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I prefer using frontpage 2003 (now better and comparable with its competitor, Dreamweaver) and Dreamweaver MX2005. Both r Good, no BEST!!!
:)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Front page 98, I know it's not the greatest one out there but I got it off my cousin and I was using express *double shudder* It has color coding html, can use css, and uses iframes in the preview. In fact my site was designed in FP98, including the book I have http://sonicia-rules.com/adam mind you, it' incomplete pending on figuring out a way to change the top picture on chapter click.. but that's my tool, I tried cuteftp and dreamweaver and it just wasn't my style. I'm at home on a word processor so, the word processor like FP98 appeals to me. :wink:

What can I say? *Shrug*
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i always use EditPlus 2.12
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Post 3+ Months Ago

RockmanTV wrote:
I use Dreamweaver in code view. I love the entities/functions lists and the color coding. It makes it a lot easier to identify problems in your code. The design view is also kind of nice for immediate testing on how the site looks. If it's way off from what you want, you can almost be sure you have issues with your code. For graphic stuff I like to use Photoshop.

I've done stuff in notepad when I need quick changes, dreamweaver is a pretty big resource hog.


dreamweaver need like a year to loading... (only for view code?)

i use EditPlus
  • Fitness4Living
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hi there
Im only new at site building and have only managed Microsoft FrontPage but I find my sites look primitive and predictable. What programs do you guys use to make your sites look slick and professional? It just I was thinking of redesigning my new fitness website over summer and didnt know how to go about it.
Thanks for any help!
  • UniquelyYoursPC
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Post 3+ Months Ago

well i use cutehtml for most all my code
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use photoshop for the graphics. And dreamweaver for the coding. I might as well use any other html editor. But I'm confortamble with DW.

all you need besides that is inspiration.

For photos you can use the free stock photos at http://www.sxc.hu
  • Tedjn
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Good old Notepad :)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Bluefish, because it's free and I like to see my code in pretty colours. It has some decent plugins too, they make sure everything is tidy and conforms to w3c should I ever stray from standards. Saying that if it's just a quick change I'll do it in a text editor.
  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

merged - no need to restart this topic.
  • M_I_K_3_Y
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Notepad it is....
and when the eyes cant take it anymore
and you need a lil color and guidance
I like a freeware prog called 1stpage,
has alot of cool add-ins and codes with just a click...
dont have to beat yourself up as with dreamweaver...
"like I do because im a lamer lol" Image

http://www.evrsoft.com/1stpage2.shtml
  • bluehaze
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Post 3+ Months Ago

If I use a text editor I use http://www.textpad.com/ other than that I mainly use Dreamweaver because thats what work/school uses.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Notepad
simple yet powerfull
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm using VIM editor Image for .php, .html, .txt and .pl

And for image editing i use GIMP Image, but none of them is in poll :( :D
  • ScienceOfSpock
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Zend and Vim at work, Ultraedit at home.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hello.
Man! Dreamwaver has NEVER helped me with my work. NEVER...
And I remember that I made a project in frontpage once...
Win98 NOTEPAD RULZ!!!
WinXP notepad sucks, because i use to save a lot, and the cursor jumps away when I save much... it has a bug... That's Why I have win98...
And also... I can write some ol' HTML at my 486 :)... (I'm using a Duron now)...

And damn! if I wanna use a cool program, I'll make one...
I have some ideas for one... I have the 12th grade exam soon and I'll make THE COOL program... i'll notify all of you fellas![/img]
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Post 3+ Months Ago

HomeSite+
  • intel17
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I have been useing Notpad Latly but the other day I re did my web page with FrontPage and it looks much better now lol
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Sam Hughes wrote:
Well, I sure have successfully derailed the conversation? :D

Anybody here like jEdit?


I used Visual Studio 2003 at work, Notepad / jEdit at home. jEdit is actually pretty nifty. I'm also working on my own Java HTML editor.
  • Tedjn
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You rich people! Dreamweaver = a year of my lunch money sheesh lol. Frontpage? Maybe I can go beg for a copy.

I'm stuck with Notepad, and it's working just fine although it is incredibly slow.

Personally, I have no problems with people using WYSIWYG editors. They've come a long way since they first started. I believe (and I'm included) that many people feel put out that their hard-learned coding is less and less useful, but as these editors advance, I guess it's going to be true.

As long as you don't give me a Dreamweaver Mickey Mouse function to look at *shudders*
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Post 3+ Months Ago

If you want to learn it all ... don't let any bloated program hold your hand.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I have been always comfortable with FrontPage I used XP and now I use 2003, I was told that Dreamweaver is good but I didn’t find any reason to switch to it since am happy with FrontPage.
  • AnarchY SI
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i like to code in DW and have the screen like 70% code area, 30% GUI area b/c as i'm going i like to see how what i'm doing is going to look. but i dont ever have dreamweaver do any code for me UNLESS i want to do an image rollover. but thats all :) and usually, i have a problem where i think i'm done for the night or whatever, and then i close dreamweaver and look at the page in a browser and i'm like "damn it...i want this different." but dreamweaver takes too long to load to make some simple changes so i have a notepad icon in my quick launch toolbar ^_^ booyah. lol


//edit - also, i've tried frontpage..but i never had a reason to use it. the only thing i ever found it good for was working with frames as thats impossibly annoying to do in dreamweaver, but then i got sick of frontpage changing my code so i just use notepad if i want to do frames (which i haven't in about a year and a half, lol)
  • Casey
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Studio MX is the only tool for me!!!

Dreamweaver can do just about everything except cook breakfast. You could probably get an expansion module for that though! It's the swiss army knife of the web design world.

Um yeah, I use Dreamweaver's template feature to control an entire site so I can update every page with a few clicks.

You're right though, it does have serious table issues if you're using the WYSIWYG editor. However, this is minor.

I often use the split-code view and I alternate between editing the source and the page.

The only glaring flaw? The price.
However, the EULA allows you to transfer your licenese, so if you find someone who is switching software, you may be able to buy an older copy of Dreamweaver after they launch a new version. It's all legal, and it's one way new designers can get a foot in the door.

Notepad's a good cheap alternative though.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Quote:
Notepad's a good cheap alternative though.

well if you really think about it, notepad comes bundled with Windows and the price for that varies a bit. its still nowhere near as expensive as Dreamweaver, but its kind of a funny statement.
However, it would be pretty easy to get the source of a similar text editor, compile it and voosh! you have your own notepad :) (i'm currently working on one that has tabbed windows for multiple documents and built-in encryption :))
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I use Dreamweaver for static html, but it's useless for dynamic (PHP). For dynamic, I use Textpad (http://www.textpad.com).
  • mlarson154
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I find if funny that many people on this forum seem to treat using DW to not being a professional web designer.

I like DW, but not for WYSIWYG development (which is crappy). I hand-code everything, and I like the color-coordinated coding that DW does. I also like how it will auto-complete my tags as I type. I also like having the site development aspect so that I'm just looking at my files for the particular site I'm working on.

And I do a lot in PHP in DW. Again, hand-coding, but I dont' think anyone on this forum is looking at using a WYSIWYG program. Again, the color-coordinated tags are really nice.

As someone said before, there are 1,000 tools to write HTML. Who cares how you do it? As long as it's correct code, what's the difference what tool you use? It's funny to see the anti-(any specific program) talk.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

i agree, the color coordinated tags are quite nice. i find the auto complete for my tags kind of annoying sometimes, but not usually.

but i dislike everything Microsoft produces so thats part of the reason i dislike frontpage :)
although i have to admit that word is good software.. i believe i like it more than openoffice's writer. but this isn't about M$ or Word / Writer...even though one COULD produce html in either :)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm not a fan of any of the html editors myself. Good ol' fashioned Notepad for all my scripts. I have discovered a neat editor. PHP Designer 2005. It's not bad, it's good for those people who like to organize their scripts with tabs and making it look as neat and readable as possible. But when testing the scripts (much like working in the .NET framework) it doesn't always work, saying that there are errors on such and such line, when there is clearly no error. That's my 2 cents worth.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

It takes quite alot of skill in notepad, i aint tried it in Dreamweaver but people say its good, i planned my whole webpages in HTML using notepad at school, i thought it was easy but 1 slight error lesses the lot up
  • Captain-Nick
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I've always used notepad. I've tried both DW and FP and haven't got along with either. Notepad is the only thing I've used that I can get the layout correct with.

My essential tools: Notepad, Photoshop and MS Paint (for quick pixel measurements and co-ordinates :P ).

Quote:
It takes quite alot of skill in notepad, i aint tried it in Dreamweaver but people say its good, i planned my whole webpages in HTML using notepad at school, i thought it was easy but 1 slight error lesses the lot up


It's true that one mistake can mess it all up. But after a while of using coding in Notepad, you remember the kinds of mistakes that cause problems. Not closing quotations tends to be the only mistake I don't notice while writing out the code.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

For design I use DW and Notepad. But for changes directly on the site online I use Portello.
A freeware plugin to IE, actually the first real WYSIWYG editor I ever have seen.
A friend of mine have built it. You find it at http://www.portello.org
  • Chief Inspector Closseau
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hi folks!
I just joined this forum minutes ago since my pal "shadeofpale" said he wrote a line about a soft I just made :D . Never mind, I use Notepad!! I use Notepad since I've never found a tool that actually does what I want. I've been creating thousands of sites over the years (I wish I had the time to put that kind of effort to my own site). I also found out that my clients find it either expensive OR difficult to update their new site (learning DW isn't fun if you're a carpenter). It's not really that hard to create a fancy good looking site with Notepad (or DW or FP). From what I have learned, it's far more difficult to learn people how to keep the content of the site fresh. A static site will lose visitors over time...that's a fact. If I don't provide my clients with a tool to update the content, they will find the money wasted building this new site...no visitors...no more assignments...no goodwill for me. CMS, sure, but expensive! This is why I made Portello. But I don't really have a clue if this tool the "right stuff"...I need some comments!! I give this tool away for free to my clients instead of writing expensive CMS, but I need some comments if it's good or not. I guess that you guy's n' gals most often (like me) use Notepad, DW or FP to create sites, but how about your clients?
  • Rogue Forces
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I write all of my HTML out by hand on notebook paper and then recite it into a transcription tool which outputs it as text on the screen.

On a serious note, most HTML I generate on-the-fly via a Java servlet or JSP, however the HTML editor that comes with netBeans is pretty nifty for static stuff.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Interesting. I didn't even know Sun's Java had an HTML editor. Other than updating the runtime environment I don't think I've touched Java in like 4 years or better.
  • Rogue Forces
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Post 3+ Months Ago

netBeans puts the "integrated" into Integrated Development Environment. I've been using it for years, even back before Sun bought it.

Both netBeans and Java have grown up quite a bit. netBeans even has a Jakarta-Tomcat server included.

You might want to give it a whirl when you have some free time.

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