Why don't you like frames or iframes?

  • the_real_tisse
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Hi all

I am new and been browsing through the forums.

I've seen a lot of posts about not liking frames or iframes. My question is, why don't you like them? I for one have no problem with them. For instance, having a menu or header as swf and html for content and so on.

Guess I just don't like a whole page to be 'refreshed' or being blank for a split second.

So, the question is, what is the problem with them? (and I don't mean when someone uses it to lock the browser inside a frame or have an external link open up in a frame window).

kind regards
Tisse

ps: if this is posted in the wrong forum, please move it to where it should be, I thought this one was the best one for it, but could be wrong on that :)
  • Anonymous
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Post 3+ Months Ago

  • ATNO/TW
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Post 3+ Months Ago

My problem with frames is essentially that most sites that I go to that use them -- the designers did a pretty crappy job of setting up the navigation. If a site in frames is well thought out and easy to navigate, I don't mind them so much.

I'm also not overly fond of the left scrollbars that are usually found in frame sites. I think it seriously detracts from the appearance of the site.

Just my 2 cents.
  • UNFLUX
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Post 3+ Months Ago

we've discussed this at length in another thread, but here's what I have
to say about it...

if a site is designed properly, as ATNO/TW said, there is no problem
with them. Most people don't even realize frames are there on a well
designed site.

But like most things in the web design world, bad designers make for
bad designs. And that usually pulls opinions down of certain
techniques. Even flash for instance, was looked at negatively because of
poor designers.

I'm not tooting my own horn here, but here's 2 designs I did using both
frames and flash together -

http://www.cloud9studios.com

http://www.evanstylez.com

i have other examples of good work for this, let me know if you want to
see them.
  • Bigwebmaster
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Post 3+ Months Ago

As far as frames and iframes, for the most part I do not like them because they aren't the greatest thing for search engines, and you can still pull off the same effect with CSS, tables, and layers (in most cases). Usually I see people using frames because it is the easy way out.
  • the_real_tisse
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thx for taking the time to reply.

UNFLUX, those are some great designs, if you have more, would love to check them out.
I'm sorry if there is another thread on this subject, must have missed it, feel free to merge this one with that other one if necessary.

Bigwebmaster, I guess you are right, it is an easy way out, but I think it can be a very functional feature imho.

Again, sorry if this is a double topic :cry:

kind regards
Tisse
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Anything relative to design can be functional -- and certainly both frames and iframes have their place. In fact, I have given some thoughts to doing some experimenting with iframes since I have finally given up (for-the-most-part) on the need to code for Netscape 4.x browsers) since they are not supported there -- keep this in mind about iframes -- NS 4.x browsers will not display them. If that is unimportant to you -- go for it.

Personally, I much prefer iframes to frames. One needs to analyze the targeted viewer and what they may be using to view the website. There are some (and I know of two designers even) who still primarily use NS 4.x versions as their browser of choice. I do have one client who's audience consists of mostly older browsers and they have no clue how to update them to something current (as an example) -- that one I even had to enlarge the text.

Fortunately, almost all my client's stats indicate those browser versions constitute less than three percent of the viewers. Most use some version of IE 5.x or higher (Most are 6.0).
  • eyelfixit
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Post 3+ Months Ago

frnakly, they are more annoying than anything in my oppinion cause the golden rules of web design come into play here (make things easier for the user).

I'm sure ya'll guy's is gonna say how lazy can you be right? But the thing is it takes only one lazy rich dude to spend lot'sa cash once for you to be real happy so.... :P

My 2 cents.
  • Acyla
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I think it's also a case of when clicking on a link that takes you out of the webpage the frames still stay there. But like the others said you can get the same effect with css, javascript files and templates.
  • slpz
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Post 3+ Months Ago

iframes are wrong.

basically, this is because they are not real html. microsoft made them up, and other browsers just allow them because they don't have to sense to stand up.

to avoid using iframes, you do not need javascript or anything super special. it only takes a little bit of css applied to a <div> tag. just using css, set
div.scrolling {
width: ###px;
height: ###px;
overflow: auto;
}
and then in your html, <div class="scrolling">

if you use iframes, or even frames, which are about to be deprecated, you should be shot, and forbidden from making "webpages".
  • b_heyer
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Woo strong words, strong words. I think the webpages unfluxed was showing has excellent use of frames. While I don't doubt that william may have made up iframes, I'd love to see documentation on this. And I don't see why you would say netscape or Opera don't have spines. They have more then enough spine, after all every day they are in existance they are standing up against william.

I will admit that W3Schools lists no attributes that are considered XHTML DTD Strict for IFrames, but it doesn't for DIV tags either. So I don't know what to say about that.

And finally, calm down, breathe a few times, and realize you aren't going to get anyone shot for using IFrames. After all isn't the internet about freedom? Let's not be hypocritical and try taking that away!
  • bikuta
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Post 3+ Months Ago

slpz wrote:
to avoid using iframes, you do not need javascript or anything super special. it only takes a little bit of css applied to a <div> tag. just using css, set
div.scrolling {
width: ###px;
height: ###px;
overflow: auto;
}
and then in your html, <div class="scrolling">


can u please tell me more about that... like how do I tell a link to load different content into that div? (i.e. in frames you would use the name of the frame as the target)
  • Carnix
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Unflux: hehe, pimp and ho halloween party =] :lol:

About frames... used properly, they can be of great benefit. It lets you seperate functional elements out and process them totally seperately. It means you can have the browser cache elements and never have to reload them, this is particularly important of your site's top banner and/or navigation is on the heavy side. you can't guarentee every browser is set to use a cache, but by good use of frames, you can simply eliminate the problem by not re-serving those heavy elements over and over.


.c
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Post 3+ Months Ago

bikuta wrote:
can u please tell me more about that... like how do I tell a link to load different content into that div? (i.e. in frames you would use the name of the frame as the target)


You would put the code for the page within the
Code: [ Select ]
<div class="scrolling"> </div>
tags.

If you wanted it to load html files like an iframe you'd have to go about it with php. But that seems kind of lame to me. I think iframes and frames can be usefull. I have not used a frame in a while but occasionally I find iframes can be pretty well suited.
  • ilyawizard
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Post 3+ Months Ago

In the past many people used different monitors with different resolutions. Some even had 640*480 (including me and many more), when websites were designed for 1024... In this resolution it was really bad to go on a website with frames. As for now, it's just anticipation of history.
  • RBeau
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I agree with Unflux, ATNO/TW, and Bigwebmaster on this one... basically there is a time and place for everything... there can be very informative, artistic, and useful websites that have frames and Iframes, just like Unflux has demonstrated.

I myself have used Iframes in an intraweb site., the place for this is that all of our users on the Air Force Base use IE6+, and the Iframe works nicely on all of my intended viewers. It got the job done, and I don't think it was really the easy way out, it was something that I chose to use that worked.

You know it is possible that people start out using HTML first... and only HTML... then they learn CSS, then they learn scripting... I think it is a natural order... and Iframes, and frames are construed as a "beginner's way" of doing something, and that the "professional way" of doing the same thing with CSS or something else, is more "accepted".

My opinion is that hey, "I am the webmaster, if I really care about reaching a wide range of viewers with my site, I will constantly search for a better way of doing things that will draw in and allow more different types of people to view my site" If that is not what I want... I will use frames and Iframes.... no just kidding....

But basically, from this thread and the experience concensus is that I think that there is a time and place for Frames, and that Frames are just another "tool" in the toolbox so-to-speak.

Robert
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Frames are fundamentally flawed.

In linking to a framesetted site, external Web authors cannot link to individual pages, without going through extra effort to see what file contains the information to which he wants to link, and even after making the link, the targeted page will lack useful navigation. The only way around this problem is for the author to have a new frameset for each page. However, this defeats the purpose of frames (which is to facilitate laziness in Web authoring).

Another problem with frames is that there is a "universal" navigation menu. This results in hyperlinks that do nothing when clicked (because they point to the current page). This is a major usability no-no.

Another limitation of frames is that hyperlinks can only point to one frame -- two cannot be updated with a single hyperlink in HTML.

Frames are never going to save significant bandwidth. Unless your pages are literally text-only or are tag-soup filled with multiple orders of table element nesting (and as seen nowadays, DIV soup), images will comprise the vast majority of bandwidth. The bandwidth saved from using frames (which is the size of a navigation bar, which is a rediculously tiny amount of bandwidth anyway) is certainly not worth the drawbacks.

Then there is its impact on search engine placement, which some people like to obsess over.

Generally speaking, on the World Wide Web, frames can never used appropriately. The only time their use is appropriate is when used for functional, rather than aesthetic, reasons. Google Groups is one example.

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