Why learn to code?

  • 360Varial
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I'm interested in becoming a web designer and a software developer, but I'm getting quite discouraged. There are so many tools out there and in the making that are doing all of the coding for you. So why bother to learn HTML, CSS, etc. ?

I already know basic HTML and CSS. Should I continue studying and learn Javascript? I feel like it's a waste of time, especially when I see sites like this http://www.k9productions.org/BTNHHQ/ made entirely in Photoshop without ever typing a single piece of code. (That site was designed by a guy named Mike btw.)

Can someone please give me some advice? I plan to major in Computer Science this fall, but the demand for programmers looks like it's going to be quite low by the time I graduate.

What do you guys think? Am I wasting my time learning to code? Is it better to design sites using Adobe Photoshop and forget about coding? Will you please tell me the advantages and disadvantages when designing in Photoshop?

Thanks
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  • b_heyer
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I love seeing my code and typing it. I REFUSE to use WYSIWYG editors for any reason.

In reference to that site you posted this is one reason:

Code: [ Select ]
<embed src="file:///C:/Documents and Settings/All Users/Desktop/BONE SITE/SITE/Movie2.swf" align="baseline" border="0" width="664" height="602" name="Movie2" quality="high" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash">


You can't like to a file on your computer on the web, just wont work. That is definatly a fualt that editors have if you do not configure them correctly.

I would recommend NOT learning JavaScript, and just learning it as you need it. But definatly learn as much HTML and CSS as you can, then move on to PHP if you are feeling daring.
  • 360Varial
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Post 3+ Months Ago

b_heyer wrote:
I love seeing my code and typing it. I REFUSE to use WYSIWYG editors for any reason.

In reference to that site you posted this is one reason:

Code: [ Select ]
<embed src="file:///C:/Documents and Settings/All Users/Desktop/BONE SITE/SITE/Movie2.swf" align="baseline" border="0" width="664" height="602" name="Movie2" quality="high" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash">


You can't like to a file on your computer on the web, just wont work. That is definatly a fualt that editors have if you do not configure them correctly.

I would recommend NOT learning JavaScript, and just learning it as you need it. But definatly learn as much HTML and CSS as you can, then move on to PHP if you are feeling daring.


Thanks for your reply. So are you saying that designing sites in PS makes it difficult to link to individual files? You mean like a banner or something? I'm confused.

Also, why shouldn't I learn Javascript? I've looked at quite a few job descriptions and Javascript is like a MUST.

Finally, I agree with you about feeling proud about your coding. I'm the same way. But if that's the only reason I should bother learning "as much HTML and CSS" then it's true that no one will need a web designer very soon. :?
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Nah, it can just be confusing setting up WYSIWYG editors because everything is automated. Most are nutorious for adding huge ammounts of extra code aswell.

And pride in my work isn't the only thing that keeps me using it, it's because I can have my code exactly how I want it, and I can make sure it's all in proper format, and validates xhtml, etc.

I guess it's a lot like a write who dictates his stories and has someone else type them out. But then again, web deisgners are designers not scripters, but I think they are one and the same.

As for JavaScript, someone else will have to back me up, but it's generally the consensus that you learn minimal ammounts of javascript, just enough so you can recognize the code and fiddle with it.
  • 360Varial
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I sort of see what you're saying but...the site I posted craps on every website I've seen coded by hand (design-wise anyways). That's why I'm starting to doubt coding. I've seen the most attractive sites made with PS and Flash. Have you ever built a site using either of those programs?

Let's say I wanted to build this immense site with a shopping cart, newsletter, message board, video, audio...the whole works. Would I need to know any code, or could all of this be done using one program or another?

Let's be honest now. I know you're a code from scratch lover, but don't be biased. :wink:

And thanks once again for your help.
  • b_heyer
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You have to remember that behind every photoshop/pagemaker, dreamweaver, or frontpage site is code. I could code that page just fine, these programs just make it easier.

As for flash, no I personally am not a big fan of pure flash sites (even though they can look awesome). Flash is in a completely different ballpark though.

I HAVE built a few pages with dreamweaver, and I still find hand coding easier, and much less confusing (user-friendly stuff isn't my thing I guess ;)).

If you wanted to do all of the said above you will most definatly need to learn PHP. I seriously don't think ANY wysiwyg editor can handle a shopping cart, let alone any dynamic content (besides putting a place holder there telling you it's php). There is no avoiding it if you want to do something to that scale. However there are webapps like phpBB and phpNuke that are prescripted you just have to upload and tweak, but the tweaking part is where it helps to know some code; Especially if you want your own template.

It's your personal opnion really, your choice, I've seen great sites created in pure hand coded hardwork, and equally great sits done in frontpage (which is bleh!). It depends how much you care to learn, and how much you want to be able to do, because remember programs have their limits and you'll need to be able to fix code manually at one point or another.
  • DR01D
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Post 3+ Months Ago

hahaha ill help you more on the "designer" side of things ;-)

my background is from graphic design and i moved to prodominantly web around 7 years ago. my opinion on what you should do depends on your background and where you want to go.

example. i came from a graphic background so my focus is purely on the website concept which includes the overall design concept, user interface, navigation etc etc. i didnt really care about the code to start with. but appreciate it now. i did not go about learning html or javascript i just picked it up as i went, now i can fully understand html and some javascript just from using wysiwyg editors like dreamweaver.

now i build my sites using css and always go through the code after the wsiwyg.

when i do a website concept i also think of how it would best be cutup from photoshop so that it is accessible, usable (speed, userfriendly) etc. the link you showed looks pretty, but is not really accessible to visually impared users and could have been constructed to be way more efficient.

by having 1 big image you compromise the quality of some of the elements on the page by compressing the whole thing, this then makes the text look blurry etc. i would have broken it up a bit using the photo bits as jpegs and the nav/text as gifs for starters.

just my thoughts ;-)
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DR01D wrote:
by having 1 big image you compromise the quality of some of the elements on the page by compressing the whole thing, this then makes the text look blurry etc. i would have broken it up a bit using the photo bits as jpegs and the nav/text as gifs for starters.


I would take it further and try to have the text as actual text, but good point. Most of us design in photoshop or fireworks or something similar (personal choice again), then cut it all up and put it back together. It might help you to consider that there are many different stages in the creation. Photoshop is but a single stage of the process. Flash is often used as an alternative to markup, but is completely the wrong tool if you need to create a basic, quick-loading, no-frills design. There are very few tools that were created with a single tool.

I'm a hand-code guy and am biased that way, because I have come to web design from a programming background. So rather than give you my opinion I will give you some points to consider:

-Some hand-coded sites won’t display nicely in a wysiwyg editor (I know mine don’t). If you are intending to work for someone else, you will almost certainly have to edit other people’s sites. If these sites won’t display nicely in wysiwyg, you need to hand edit them.

-Your boss may require you to use dreamweaver or frontpage to create the site.

-Wysiwyg is easier but hand coding has more flexibility.

-If you learn the easy way first, the hard way may seem too much effort to bother with (this happens to a lot of people). If you learn the hard way first, you can pick up the easy way without really trying.

-hand coding allows you to do anything. If you have the kind of mind that can think around corners then you will always be able to code a way through it. Can you do this with Wysiwyg.

-wysiwyg (especially frontpage) adds so much bloated code. I recently looked through a site made in frontpage and managed to reduce the total filesize for the code by about 40%! I don’t know how much of that was frontpage and how much was the user, but it puts me off.

-Javascript is worth learning, but you don’t need to know that much of it. Whilst DHTML can be fun to create, it isn’t really that useful. Learn the syntax and the ways of integrating Javascript into your site, then buy a big reference book (I use the O’reilly definitive guide). Server-side scripting is more important.

I would suggest learn to hand code, then learn wysiwyg. That way you probably will learn both (rather than sticking with the easy option) and can decide for yourself which is better for you and which you find most useful. It also covers you for when people require you to do things a certain way.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

360Varial wrote:
I sort of see what you're saying but...the site I posted craps on every website I've seen coded by hand (design-wise anyways). That's why I'm starting to doubt coding. I've seen the most attractive sites made with PS and Flash. Have you ever built a site using either of those programs?


Photoshop ISN'T a HTML editor. It's a graphics application. I use photoshop for the graphics on my site, but I produce the HTML code myself with a text editor.

You can't hand-code a photograph, but the HTML code to designate what is displayed where is plain regular text.

If you look in the source for the BTNH website URL you pasted, the actual application that produced the HTML is "FrontPage Express" (Now, I think that was the version they used to give away free with Internet Explorer 4, so that shows how old it is).

Graphics & HTML are two different things.

WYSIWYG Editors, in the sense that b_heyer is referring to, are things like FrontPage, Dreamweaver, etc. I don't use those either. But, I do use Photoshop for my graphics work (which isn't the same as HTML).
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Post 3+ Months Ago

I am still learning a lot about coding websites and I started using Front Page 2003 but since I am curious I started looking at the code as I created. Now I understand HTML a bit better and can see where FP will add junk to the code that isn'tr needed. My friend has asked me to help him with his site and actually helped him solve some problems just by looking at the code. I think Front Page and the like are good tools to maybe learn on but eventually you will need to figure out the code to solve potential problems. Now I am trying to figure out PHP and having a load of fun.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

man i hate frontpage with a passion, i have had to clean up its code so many times from site that i had to manage. some pages were around 39k just for the code which then was chopped to about 8k after all the crap was taken out.

im getting into php now aswell and starting to get my head around it, using portal and cms engines.

id say, which way you go depends on what your background is and what you would enjoy doing. both ways have their benefits. i use dreamweaver so i can do both. ;-)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

The thing I really hate about frontpage (don't know about others) is that it tries to "fix" your code when you do some manual editing, it also changes the size of tables all the time, and other crap like that. The only reason I did use it was because I could preview faster and it had syntax highlighting.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Personally, I love to use HTML and CSS. There is a huge sense of self accolpishment. And if you think about it, programs such as MS Frontpage, as great as they are, are limited. With HTML, CSS, and Java, the possibilities are endless. And some people will argue that HTML editors will eventually have updated features when the new version comes out. True, that may be, but raw HTML and java is where you will see new features first.
  • 360Varial
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Post 3+ Months Ago

Thanks sincerely for all of your replies, but this wasn't about Frontpage.

I wanted to know more about building sites in ImageReady and Adobe Photoshop. I KNOW that it isn't an html editor, but I've seen many sites and heard of sites designed with PS and ImageReady. I myself even begin working on a site with those two programs.

Most of you believe that the applications such as Frontpage and Dreamweaver have their limits, but what about in the next 5 years. That's what I'm worried about... The Future. I just didn't want to waste my time learning this stuff only for it to become completely useless by the time I leave college...in 2008!! :(

It's been almost two weeks since I've studied anything and I'm just about ready to forget web design. Like I said, I appreciate all of you trying to help, but I still can't seem to find the answers that I'm looking for. Maybe I'm not being very clear on what I'm looking for. Iono.
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Post 3+ Months Ago

You don't build sites in Photoshop, you design graphics in Photoshop :)

Photoshop doesn't output HTML code :)
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Post 3+ Months Ago

http://www.hostultra.com/~qskrayzie/Grizz/2/main.html

Here's the first site I tried to build using nothing but PS and ImageReady. I rushed to upload it so forgive me if some things are missing or whatever. I know it's extremely ugly, and the code (to you guys cause I don't know any better) will probably look horrible. BUT my point is...I was able to do pretty much everything I wanted to do using these two programs alone. It slices everything up and exports the html, so what do you mean it doesn't output any html?

Now don't get me wrong. I know that you guys know way more than I do about this stuff. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about. I'm just trying to get things straight for myself. You all are telling me this and that can't be done in PS and ImageReady, but I've done it and other people say they have done it.

Do me a favor. Rip that page apart. Point out the faults. Criticism is welcomed. Why would building that same page (if possible) by code have made it better?
  • rtm223
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I am assuming this was done by using an export to web wizard in photoshop.

Basically, this is using Photoshop as an html editor. Just like other wysiwyg editors it will have the benefit of being all simple, whilst having many limitations. Further, photoshop was never designed for this - the export facility is a bonus add-on, a gimmick. This means that you will be even more limited than if using Frontpage.

A couple of years ago, an IT teacher set my class an assignment, which was this:
We were to produce the following documents:
A letter all properly laid out etc
An Invoice, which calculated the sum of all of the items, added VAT and postage costs using a couple of calculations
A power-point-style presentation

Each document was to be produced in Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.

obviously each document was easy to produce in the correct application. Try making an invoice that auto-calculates in Word (just about possible) or Powerpoint (not so possible)

Basically what this shows is that every application has its purpose, its strengths and it's weaknesses. You can design websites in word, but it isn't advisable. You can design websites in photoshop, but again, not advisable.

Quote:
I just didn't want to waste my time learning this stuff only for it to become completely useless by the time I leave college...in 2008!!

Sorry but this made me laugh. You believe that not learning how to do things is somehow super-useful? HTML Will not magically dissappear in the next four years. It will evolve, as it has done for the last seven years (or however long it has been). Slowly and surely it will evolve and improve. So you keep track of the changes. If you want to get into a business in IT or technology then you have to be prepared for change.

If you are scared of keeping up with the changes then I advise you to go and find a business that doesn't require you to think.

BTW if you do want anything really useful for a site (you mentioned forums, eCommerce, etc.) you need to learn server-side scripting. I doubt anyone here would advise you to learn server side scripting before you even know any markup.

Final Point: you will get back from this what you are willing to put in. If you put in a lot of effort to learning stuff (and there is a lot of stuff to learn) you will get good and be able to really excel. If you can't be bothered to learn even the basics, then you will never be any good. laziness just won't pay off.
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Thanks for f*in highjacking my browser! Geez! How many pop-ups was that? And then one of them wouldn't close?

You NEED to learn coding if you plan on having any kind of a future in web development. Period. That's the straight truth. If you don't want to learn coding, perhaps try your hand at farming.

I was going to type a nice message in response, but that pop-up attack just ticked me off!
  • DR01D
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also when you do a concept in photoshop you decide the best way to cut it up, how you want the nav, text to include the background image, whether to use transparent gifs, etc etc. when photoshop/fireworks cuts up a page it tends to look at the image in a 2 dimensional way and just cut up what you can see. i love pshop (hate fireworks) but i think you decide the best way to cut up a page rather than the software.

to the average joe its probably not a big issue but making sure the page is accessible to visually impared, usable to everyone, works on all browsers etc etc.. thats the difference between the average web designer/developer and a good one, its the small things (detail).

then again i have had a bit of alcohol and this could be a bit of a ramble ;-)
  • gsv2com
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Makes sense. But then again, I've had a few drinks as well. :) LOL.
  • 360Varial
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gsv2com wrote:
Thanks for f*in highjacking my browser! Geez! How many pop-ups was that? And then one of them wouldn't close?

You NEED to learn coding if you plan on having any kind of a future in web development. Period. That's the straight truth. If you don't want to learn coding, perhaps try your hand at farming.

I was going to type a nice message in response, but that pop-up attack just ticked me off!


I didn't realize there were alot of popups. Norton must have blocked them from my computer. So sorry....but you can save the *plum*.

Thanks to the rest of you though. I think I'll continue learning to code.
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No one really ripped this apart, so here I go. And sorry if you're not looking for responses anymore, but maybe this could be a lesson to everyone:

-Not everyone has broadband. Too many graphics overload these connections. Be considerate of the dial-up and DSL users. Yes, in most places, DSL is still slower than broadband. Please shut up.

-The image ends abruptly on the right side! It just goes to white! This is what code is for...not only does it add interactive elements, it's structuring, too! This is not aesthetically pleasing at all, not even the image itself.

-Your pages need to be much simpler. Yes, they can be very beautiful with being light on the graphics side. Check out the resources at http://websoup.org. Websoup itself has a great layout!

-What is this page about? I have nooo idea!

-Psh. I got a bunch of 404s, so even if I WANTED to know what this was about, which I really don't by the looks of it, I couldn't find out!

-Photoshop is NOT an HTML editor. Yes, it exports code. But at this point, Word is a better HTML editor than PS. Why is yout HTML all is caps??? That makes it so hard to read! If you end up going onto XHTML and XML, they only tolerate lowercase, which is why a crappy editor like FrontPage Express or PS or whatever sucks so bad.

If you need help at any time with anything, anyone here who knows what they're talking about will be more than glad to help you. But please, it is a grave mistake to think that you don't need to learn any of this.
  • gsv2com
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360Varial wrote:
gsv2com wrote:
Thanks for f*in highjacking my browser! Geez! How many pop-ups was that? And then one of them wouldn't close?

You NEED to learn coding if you plan on having any kind of a future in web development. Period. That's the straight truth. If you don't want to learn coding, perhaps try your hand at farming.

I was going to type a nice message in response, but that pop-up attack just ticked me off!


I didn't realize there were alot of popups. Norton must have blocked them from my computer. So sorry....but you can save the *plum*.

Thanks to the rest of you though. I think I'll continue learning to code.


Read from "You NEED to learn coding... onword to farming". If you consider that to be BS then you're a lost cause.

Anyway, it's not just pop-ups that ticked me off. One of the popups actually opened into a full-size window without a close box, disallowed right clicking, and would not close on alt-f4. That's what pissed me off. You've got pop-ups on your site that mimic tactics used by those who market porn in spam email.
  • 360Varial
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gsv2com wrote:
360Varial wrote:
gsv2com wrote:
Thanks for f*in highjacking my browser! Geez! How many pop-ups was that? And then one of them wouldn't close?

You NEED to learn coding if you plan on having any kind of a future in web development. Period. That's the straight truth. If you don't want to learn coding, perhaps try your hand at farming.

I was going to type a nice message in response, but that pop-up attack just ticked me off!


I didn't realize there were alot of popups. Norton must have blocked them from my computer. So sorry....but you can save the *plum*.

Thanks to the rest of you though. I think I'll continue learning to code.


Read from "You NEED to learn coding... onword to farming". If you consider that to be BS then you're a lost cause.

Anyway, it's not just pop-ups that ticked me off. One of the popups actually opened into a full-size window without a close box, disallowed right clicking, and would not close on alt-f4. That's what pissed me off. You've got pop-ups on your site that mimic tactics used by those who market porn in spam email.


I apologize. That's not were I would host a whole site. I was just trying to upload that page somewhere real quick. Just to give you guys an example. But like I said, I had no idea there were alot of pop-ups. I just opened it again and I got two. So I guess it is probably loaded with ads if I disable my firewall. But last night I didn't notice any pop-ups because I was in a hurry and I always have multiple windows open.

Sorry to you guys who experienced the pop-ups. And gsv, I said save the bs because you came off yelling, using profanity, and making sarcastic remarks. I know this is just the internet, but I was trying to get some help and I felt you were being quite rude. But it's all over with now so...whatever. :flush:

Now give me a hug.
  • conorific
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Thank you for disregarding my comments. Le sigh.
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conorific wrote:
Thank you for disregarding my comments. Le sigh.


I didn't upload the whole site. That's why you're getting the 404s. There is nothing to link to.

I already know that PS is not an HTML editor.

I didn't code any of that myself so don't ask me why it's in all caps. I'd never code anything in all caps. I DO know that much.

I see what you mean about all of the images needing to load. That's bad. You're right.

Websoup looks like a nice site. I'll be sure to check it out when I get some time. Thanks.
  • gsv2com
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It was *masked* profanity. :? I didn't actually spell anything out the way you did. :lol: But anyway, I was in an aggressive mood yesterday so I appologize.

But, you need to learn to code. You'll enjoy it too. If you need any help, let me know. But get away from using Photoshop as a web-dev tool as soon as possible.

I think your homepage caught me at a bad moment.
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360Varial wrote:
Now give me a hug.

LOL! :lol: Nothing like a Friday to make ammends. Er, at least it's Friday in Japan. Not sure about where you folk are.
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conorific wrote:
Thank you for disregarding my comments. Le sigh.

Sorry, I think you got caught in our cross-fire. Good post though.
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b_heyer wrote:
I love seeing my code and typing it. I REFUSE to use WYSIWYG editors for any reason.

In reference to that site you posted this is one reason:

Code: [ Select ]
<embed src="file:///C:/Documents and Settings/All Users/Desktop/BONE SITE/SITE/Movie2.swf" align="baseline" border="0" width="664" height="602" name="Movie2" quality="high" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash">


You can't like to a file on your computer on the web, just wont work. That is definatly a fualt that editors have if you do not configure them correctly.

I would recommend NOT learning JavaScript, and just learning it as you need it. But definatly learn as much HTML and CSS as you can, then move on to PHP if you are feeling daring.


Yes, definately move on to php, i hate using any programs that create code for you, thats why i tried learning by typing it all out myself in notepad, and i have done so ever since, you learn quicker and it gives you a buzz knowing you created something yourself!
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